Decreasing rated range.

[islandbayy]

Ive charged my 60 to 100% every day for the last 2 1/2 weeks. My rated range went from 199-202 to 208. Yes, I do cycle my battery low a lot, and no, I don't leave it sit long periods at 100%.

 

[breser]

The only time it is actively cooled down is when it reaches a dangerous temperature which is when you drive very hard or when you charge at a Supercharger.

The sounds coming from my car while charging on my HPWC in my garage and the water left on the floor under my car disagree with this assumption.

 

[bigsmooth125]

I interpreted his comment as meaning two hours total at the supercharger...so probably an hour or so at or near 100%.

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This is true. My personal experience has been:

With my 2012 S85, I frequently charged to 70 or 80% max, and with this saw my max rated range drift downward. Granted, I still believe the overwhelming majority of this was not real battery degredation but either imbalance or algorithmic issues.

With my 2014 P85, I charge to 90% 5 days a week. Doing this, my 90% charge has remained at or above 236 miles for all of the 13,500 miles on the car--and I rarely Supercharge or charge to 100%. If I were to do that once or twice a month, I'm pretty sure it'd be higher.

Anecdotally, it seems to me that some level of balancing happens at 90%. Charging daily to 90% seems to prevent the downward drift in rated range, whereas charging to 80% means your rated range drifts downward. But again, only Tesla knows--and why they don't publically state how this behaves is puzzling to me--especially given that they've now essentially opened up all their patents.

I'd LOVE to hear JB discuss balancing sometime. It would probably put this entire thread to bed.

The different rated range results you're now getting could also be due to a different and better battery. It would be an interesting experiment if you were to now charge to 80% or less for a while to see if your rated range starts to drift downwards. If it does, it would also be interesting to see if charging to 90% raises the rated range back to where it is now.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

The only time it is actively cooled down is when it reaches a dangerous temperature which is when you drive very hard or when you charge at a Supercharger.

That's not entirely true. My car actively cools itself while charging at 80A on my HPWC in the garage.

 

[scaesare]

I wonder if they've changed the algorithm in recent FW versions. I caught my car cooling during HPWC charging a bit back... first time I can ever recall that happening in the 2 years I've owned it.

 

[mknox]

That's not entirely true. My car actively cools itself while charging at 80A on my HPWC in the garage.

Oddly, my car is completely silent at Superchargers. At home, on the odd occasion, I'll hear a pump and/or fan but at a seemingly very low setting.

 

[breser]

I wonder if they've changed the algorithm in recent FW versions. I caught my car cooling during HPWC charging a bit back... first time I can ever recall that happening in the 2 years I've owned it.

My S85 I got in September did the same thing. So if it's recent it's sometime before September.

 

[dirkhh]

My 60 (VIN 11xxx) would turn on a very loud fan at superchargers - and my P85D does the same. I have caught my 60 turning on the pack cooler in the garage as well in the summer. It hasn't really been all that warm here so far this year and so far I haven't caught my P85D doing that but I see no reason to believe it wouldn't.
I'm actually quite surprised that mknox says his car isn't turning on the fan at superchargers. Both of mine do/did that reliably. Every time I charged for more than a few minutes.

 

[andrewket]

This was for two hours at a Supercharger. I've let it run for about 4 hours at work on an 80 amp J1772 station (I have dual chargers) with the same result of never stopping. I either run out of time and have to leave or, honestly, get a little freaked at it throwing that much current for so long into an apparently full battery.

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I did 70% to 30% most of last summer and lost about 25 Rated miles of range when I eventually did a full charge. After that, I started doing 90% regularly and got about 5 miles of range back.

May just bite the bullet and let it run all night at 100% and see what happens :scared:

The type of charger is irrelevant at this point. You're only charging at 12A in your pic. Let the car finish charging to 100% overnight. Your pack clearly needs to balance.

 

[Larry Chanin]

Doing a full cycle on the battery (going from one end to the other) sort of re-calibrates this calculation. Tesla actually explained that in an official email. So charging to 100% after a long period of time of only partially charging it will recalibrate the range prediction. I don't know why so many people insist on saying it's balancing when Tesla specifically said it's a calibration issue and at the same time never mentioned anything about balancing.

No doubt they didn't get the email. :wink:

Would you care to share it?

Larry

 

[Mario Kadastik]

Recently asked Rafael de Mestre about how his battery is doing. He's got over 80k km on it and he claimed that he recently charged to 399km on Typical, which is pretty much what you get on new cars (~401-403km).

Chargelocator Team on Twitter:

So in fact what it's starting to look like is that if you baby the battery your apparent range loss is bigger than when you regularly use it fully (i.e. 100%-0%-100%-0%-...). Wether this holds also for longevity in terms of catastrophic cell failure modes or only for time dependent degradations, but it does look like the battery likes it when it's used more, not less. I think that's also somewhat in line with what islandbayy saw with his 60 which was retaining range quite well even though he went through crazy amounts of milage and did loads of supercharging. Wether his catastrophic failure was correlated or not is a separate question

 

[mknox]

I'm actually quite surprised that mknox says his car isn't turning on the fan at superchargers. Both of mine do/did that reliably. Every time I charged for more than a few minutes.

My first experience with Superchargers was on a trip to Chicago last summer and I paid very close attention as I was expecting the fans/pumps/cooling system to come on... but nothing. It wasn't "hot" but temps in the mid 70's. Now that we have a few Superchargers closer to home, I've noticed the same thing here. In fact I supercharged twice last weekend and the car just sat there quietly. I do have an A-pack battery that can't charge as fast as newer packs. I wonder if this is why?

 

[walla2]

So in fact what it's starting to look like is that if you baby the battery your apparent range loss is bigger than when you regularly use it fully

I used to think this but many variables are at play. My 2012 car with 11k miles and 6k miles on the replacement pack shows on a range charge yesterday 262 miles. I clearly do not drive very much, routinely charge to 90%, and have reasonable range left despite this.

 

[smartypnz]

My first experience with Superchargers was on a trip to Chicago last summer and I paid very close attention as I was expecting the fans/pumps/cooling system to come on... but nothing. It wasn't "hot" but temps in the mid 70's. Now that we have a few Superchargers closer to home, I've noticed the same thing here. In fact I supercharged twice last weekend and the car just sat there quietly. I do have an A-pack battery that can't charge as fast as newer packs. I wonder if this is why?

Don't think so.... our A pack will have the fans turn on at SC when hot out. We see temps at the Gilroy SC in the 90- 100 degree range in summer (air temp) and no shade on the asphalt. At home, it will be 55 degrees (yes 45 miles away) and only rarely hear the fans while charging.

 

[mknox]

Don't think so.... our A pack will have the fans turn on at SC when hot out. We see temps at the Gilroy SC in the 90- 100 degree range in summer (air temp) and no shade on the asphalt. At home, it will be 55 degrees (yes 45 miles away) and only rarely hear the fans while charging.

I guess I'll have to pay attention when it gets warmer over the summer...

 

[benjiejr]

P85D with rated range of 250 miles at 100% SOC; 224 miles at 90%. I've lost a few miles over the 5 months I've had it. I'm guessing this is typical but it seems like others are reporting a bit more range. Am I within spec?

 

[dirkhh]

P85D with rated range of 250 miles at 100% SOC; 224 miles at 90%. I've lost a few miles over the 5 months I've had it. I'm guessing this is typical but it seems like others are reporting a bit more range. Am I within spec?

Tons of factors play into this. Random luck, apparently. How often do you do 100% charges? How often do you draw it down to below 20% (or so)? What are the temperatures where you live? How many miles in those 5 years?
I get 229-230 at 90% on mine, so 224 is about a 2% loss. That seems entirely within the bell curve that has been reported...

 

[benjiejr]

Tons of factors play into this. Random luck, apparently. How often do you do 100% charges? How often do you draw it down to below 20% (or so)? What are the temperatures where you live? How many miles in those 5 years?
I get 229-230 at 90% on mine, so 224 is about a 2% loss. That seems entirely within the bell curve that has been reported...

Thanks for your response @dirkhh. I've only done 100% charge 2 times (and used it quickly afterwards). It's only been below 20% about 4 times (and charged it immediately). Temperatures in San Antonio during this time period have been very moderate and for the most part in the range of 40-85 degrees. I've had the car for 5 months (not years) and have about 8200 miles.

 

[RyanT]

Here's mine with 10k miles range mode on. I charge to 90% every day and have done a 100% charge at least a dozen times. When I got it, it charged to 270. It might have got to 268 or 269 if I left it go for awhile.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Oddly, my car is completely silent at Superchargers. At home, on the odd occasion, I'll hear a pump and/or fan but at a seemingly very low setting.

Behavior varies with ambient temps. I'm in Arizona where it's in the 90s and low 100s this time of year. Charging at 80A starts out silent, but as charging progresses you hear the car spooling up the different cooling systems.