Why am I not surprised?
FWIW, Paul used to do excellent work, by all accounts. Something went bad. Maybe he has a different mechanic doing the work now and prefers to turn out shoddy work than close down his conversion shop.
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Daniel's EVPorsche 911 conversion
- Thread starter daniel
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FWIW, Paul used to do excellent work, by all accounts. Something went bad. Maybe he has a different mechanic doing the work now and prefers to turn out shoddy work than close down his conversion shop.
I just got word, the Porsche will not be ready in time for the Plug-In Day event. I'll have the Roadster there, and other folks will have other cars, and it sounds like a major theme is "ride and drive," so I'll give rides if folks want. I won't let anyone drive it. Not unless some REALLY nice woman makes me an inappropriate offer. I imagine there will be cars there people can drive.
mitch672
Active Member
Daniel, I love your sense of humor, remember, money can't buy happiness, but it buys almost everything else
mitch672
Active Member
Hi qwk. Nice to meet you in Spokane yesterday!
So about the Porsche:
Tim took the car this spring with the project of testing the battery cells and re-assembling the pack using the best half of them. He said he'd be done by the time I got back from my summer hiking trip. Then he said he'd be done in time for plug-in day yesterday. Then he said his first test, discharging the cells at 100 amps, every cell failed, so he wanted to start over and test them at 40 amps, which would take six weeks. This would mean that the car would not be drivable until winter, and since I don't want to buy winter tires for it, I would not be able to drive it until next spring. That is unacceptable.
So I gave him an ultimatum: I get the car back by the end of this month, in drivable condition, so that I can drive it for a month before the snow flies, or I will get rid of it. He wants to install a new battery pack for $12,000. He says it will be a great car if he does that. But separately he has said that it really should have a clutch put back in, and the motor may need work, and in any case the 11" warp motor is a poor choice for the car. A month to drive it, even at short range, would allow me to decide if I enjoy it enough to continue pouring money into it. He replied that the entire battery pack is shot, but Gordy thinks the car would be drivable, though with greatly reduced range.
So I've decided that unless I can drive it for a month, I'm done with it and I'll take my loss, shout obscenities for a week until it's out of my system, and then move on. If I can drive it, I'll decide. Tim and Gordy have very different opinions about what should be possible during that month, given the condition of the batteries.
Getting rid of it will likely mean putting it up for sale on eBay or Craig's List or something. If I get no acceptable offers, I may donate it to one of those outfits that takes cars for charity. If I'm really angry, I may find one of those places that lets people hit cars with a baseball bat.
It's been suggested that I donate it to a school, but as a conversion project, there's just not much to be done on it but install a very expensive battery pack. Installing a clutch and/or a different motor would be trivial, but expensive.
I'm angry, not at Tim or Gordy, both of whom have done their best, but at Paul for making such a disaster out of the original conversion, both in the design choices and in execution, and at myself for taking on the project in the first place, and for trusting Paul. And I'm sick to death of that damn car. I never should have bought it. I should have been satisfied with the little Zap Xebra, which was reliable car and fun to drive in spite of its pathetic power, until a proper OEM electric car was available. Now I have a super amazing EV, and it's time to accept my loss as a punishment for a stupid choice and move on.
I've been saying that if I had a girlfriend I'd have a good pack put in the Porsche and it could be her car. Now I'm thinking that in the one in a hundred million chance that I did find a girlfriend, a better idea would be to get her a Model S.
So about the Porsche:
Tim took the car this spring with the project of testing the battery cells and re-assembling the pack using the best half of them. He said he'd be done by the time I got back from my summer hiking trip. Then he said he'd be done in time for plug-in day yesterday. Then he said his first test, discharging the cells at 100 amps, every cell failed, so he wanted to start over and test them at 40 amps, which would take six weeks. This would mean that the car would not be drivable until winter, and since I don't want to buy winter tires for it, I would not be able to drive it until next spring. That is unacceptable.
So I gave him an ultimatum: I get the car back by the end of this month, in drivable condition, so that I can drive it for a month before the snow flies, or I will get rid of it. He wants to install a new battery pack for $12,000. He says it will be a great car if he does that. But separately he has said that it really should have a clutch put back in, and the motor may need work, and in any case the 11" warp motor is a poor choice for the car. A month to drive it, even at short range, would allow me to decide if I enjoy it enough to continue pouring money into it. He replied that the entire battery pack is shot, but Gordy thinks the car would be drivable, though with greatly reduced range.
So I've decided that unless I can drive it for a month, I'm done with it and I'll take my loss, shout obscenities for a week until it's out of my system, and then move on. If I can drive it, I'll decide. Tim and Gordy have very different opinions about what should be possible during that month, given the condition of the batteries.
Getting rid of it will likely mean putting it up for sale on eBay or Craig's List or something. If I get no acceptable offers, I may donate it to one of those outfits that takes cars for charity. If I'm really angry, I may find one of those places that lets people hit cars with a baseball bat.
It's been suggested that I donate it to a school, but as a conversion project, there's just not much to be done on it but install a very expensive battery pack. Installing a clutch and/or a different motor would be trivial, but expensive.
I'm angry, not at Tim or Gordy, both of whom have done their best, but at Paul for making such a disaster out of the original conversion, both in the design choices and in execution, and at myself for taking on the project in the first place, and for trusting Paul. And I'm sick to death of that damn car. I never should have bought it. I should have been satisfied with the little Zap Xebra, which was reliable car and fun to drive in spite of its pathetic power, until a proper OEM electric car was available. Now I have a super amazing EV, and it's time to accept my loss as a punishment for a stupid choice and move on.
I've been saying that if I had a girlfriend I'd have a good pack put in the Porsche and it could be her car. Now I'm thinking that in the one in a hundred million chance that I did find a girlfriend, a better idea would be to get her a Model S.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
If none of the cells can put out even 100 amps I don't see the point in testing them at 40 amps since they will still be pretty much useless. I also don't see how the Warp would be a poor choice for the car. If the pack could deliver the power you'd get good performance from it.
There is another possible option besides a $12K pack. The New CA cells from CALB have been tested to 12C in bursts, so a 100 ah cell can put out 1200 amps, which may be more than your controller can deliver, (I've forgotten what you have). 45 cells would put you around 144V, would give you 14.4 kwhs and around 50 miles of range, and should be around $6-$7k.
On the other hand, it might be time to sell it at a loss for what you can get and forget all about it. Someone could make a decent car out of it.
There is another possible option besides a $12K pack. The New CA cells from CALB have been tested to 12C in bursts, so a 100 ah cell can put out 1200 amps, which may be more than your controller can deliver, (I've forgotten what you have). 45 cells would put you around 144V, would give you 14.4 kwhs and around 50 miles of range, and should be around $6-$7k.
On the other hand, it might be time to sell it at a loss for what you can get and forget all about it. Someone could make a decent car out of it.
I spent a couple of hours yesterday with Tim and Gordy. The pack is shot. Their hope now is to salvage enough cells that the car can limp, so it can be moved without having to push it. Tim's place is almost a half an hour from me, so I spent nearly an hour in the Roadster, on the freeway and the city streets. The Porsche is a beautiful car and comfortable to sit in, but the Roadster is FUN to drive, has instant torque up the wazoo for merging and passing or just taking off from stop signs, has a top speed faster than I'd ever drive any car. It's reliable and is supported by Tesla and the rangers. The Porsche is an unknown. And I don't need two EVs.
The 11 inch warp motor is a bad choice because it is a DC motor with a rather narrow torque curve. That means it requires a transmission, and while it is entirely usable without the clutch, it would need one to be able to perform to it's best.
There are cheaper batteries than the ones Tim would like to put in it, but both Tim and Gordy are agreed that they would not be as good. And my dilemma is that until I can actually drive the thing, I have no way to assess whether I'd really like it now that I've driven the Roadster. Tim thinks that a $12,000 pack would increase the as-is value of the car by $10,000. Clearly a bad proposition if I end up selling it. And again, I have no need for two EVs.
So I am going to sell it or give it away.
Gordy is going to place ads in EV venues on line and spread the word among his contacts in the EV community. Anybody who reads this can contact me directly. I might put it on eBay. I am asking $65K. I know that's an unrealistic number, but I will take all serious offers into consideration. It is a beautiful car and only needs a new battery pack. It needs a clutch only if you want top performance. There's a slight vibration in the motor, only at very high rpms. Gordy and Tim have been unable to determine the cause, maybe because I've decided to quit spending money on it. Physically it's in immaculate condition, inside and out, and Gordy's work on the revised conversion is a work of art. The rear seats were removed to make room for batteries, but the seats are available if the buyer wants them. The rear seats in a Porsche 911 are virtually useless. When I got in the rear seat once, I almost could not get out, and I am a small person: 5' 6.5" 140 lbs.
If I cannot get a tolerable price for the car, I'll donate it to charity. Most big charities will accept car donations. Maybe they'll get horribly little for it, but I won't have to know.
Once Gordy has put pictures up on the net somewhere, I'll post a link. I only have a few.
The 11 inch warp motor is a bad choice because it is a DC motor with a rather narrow torque curve. That means it requires a transmission, and while it is entirely usable without the clutch, it would need one to be able to perform to it's best.
There are cheaper batteries than the ones Tim would like to put in it, but both Tim and Gordy are agreed that they would not be as good. And my dilemma is that until I can actually drive the thing, I have no way to assess whether I'd really like it now that I've driven the Roadster. Tim thinks that a $12,000 pack would increase the as-is value of the car by $10,000. Clearly a bad proposition if I end up selling it. And again, I have no need for two EVs.
So I am going to sell it or give it away.
Gordy is going to place ads in EV venues on line and spread the word among his contacts in the EV community. Anybody who reads this can contact me directly. I might put it on eBay. I am asking $65K. I know that's an unrealistic number, but I will take all serious offers into consideration. It is a beautiful car and only needs a new battery pack. It needs a clutch only if you want top performance. There's a slight vibration in the motor, only at very high rpms. Gordy and Tim have been unable to determine the cause, maybe because I've decided to quit spending money on it. Physically it's in immaculate condition, inside and out, and Gordy's work on the revised conversion is a work of art. The rear seats were removed to make room for batteries, but the seats are available if the buyer wants them. The rear seats in a Porsche 911 are virtually useless. When I got in the rear seat once, I almost could not get out, and I am a small person: 5' 6.5" 140 lbs.
If I cannot get a tolerable price for the car, I'll donate it to charity. Most big charities will accept car donations. Maybe they'll get horribly little for it, but I won't have to know.
Once Gordy has put pictures up on the net somewhere, I'll post a link. I only have a few.
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JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I'd like to know what cells they think will do better than the CALB's.
I've never been able to wrap my head around your reasoning on this one. You'll give the car away for free if you can't sell it, but If you sell it you want a frankly ridiculous price for a non functioning EV. Why not put a reasonable price on it?
Another possible option is to contact Jack Rickard of EVTV. He has a lot of money, strong interest in EV's, and a number of conversion projects under his belt, including the other Paul Liddle special I mentioned. He might be interested in the car as a project and because of the story, it would make good material for his EVTV show.
Tim likes the Headway HW38120HP 3.2V 8Ah 25C cells. And Gordy is planning to talk to Jack Rickard. I know my attitude is unreasonable. The point is that if I donate it to charity I don't have to know how little was paid for it. As for my asking price, that's only a number because I have no idea what it should be worth. I'm soliciting any and all offers. I'll accept the best one if I think it is reasonable.
A brand new Model S is $50k after tax credit...you certainly aren't going to sell a non-functioning home built EV for anywhere near that with the Model S as your competition.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
CALB's are much easier to work with and have better quality control than the Headways, and with the larger format cells there is no need for anything near a 25C rating. I would not put Headways in one of my cars.
That is a problem. But to be honest, from what I'm reading here, very few people are buying the cheapest trim line. Most people want at least the 60 kWh pack, and lots are saying that once you drive the performance version, you're going to spend the extra $10 for that.
What the Porsche has going for it is that it's a Porsche. But I know I won't get $50K. That's why I'm asking for offers.
Thanks. It's good to have additional perspective. And in fact, I will not put the Headways in. I even ran the idea of lead past Gordy and Tim. In the end, I'm not putting any more money into the Porsche. It's basically a dead loss. It would have been a fine car four years ago, the best thing on the road, if it had been done right, if Paul had not destroyed it. Back before the Roadster existed. Now it's like a 1990's computer. Its day is past. The four and a half years it's been in the works have rendered it obsolete. The bottom line is that Paul robbed me, and Gordy just didn't have time to fix it quickly enough.
But it is still an absolutely gorgeous car, in immaculate condition, with a very nice conversion after Gordy's repairs, and for an EV enthusiast who loves Porsches but hates gasoline, it could be somebody's darling. It still has potential. Just not for me anymore. It's really the Roadster, and not the Model S, that has rendered the Porsche less desirable, because nobody who really wants a Porsche is considering a sedan instead, and the Porsche never had the functionality of a sedan.
Daniel,
Look, I think that despite the fact that it's a Porsche, it's a car that's been highly modified, doesn't have the original ICE or transmission or anything a Porsche enthusiast will want. It is a Porsche in facade only at this point.
I still think you should ask around at some colleges and high schools..despite your personal concern about the cost, lots of places are willing to make donations to worthy causes. If you donate the car, with incomplete but started EV system, they may well be able to get a donation of batteries and other materials as a tax write off from the companies that make those things in return for some positive press and a decal on the side of the car. You could take a tax write off on the donation as well.
While there are charitable organizations that take cars, I suspect they're not going to want the porsche, it's not "fixable" in the traditional sense and they usually fix them up for use and sale.
If you truely want to try to sell it, then I think you should go with Ebay, put a starting price of $9995 on it, use some really nice photos and cross your fingers.
Whether most people get the $50k trim package is irrelevant...if they're willing to spend $50k on an EV and their choices are b/w your broken fixer upper and a brand spanking new Tesla, it's a total no-brainer.
Again, the person who buys this car won't be someone trying to decide between it and a purpose-built mass-manufactured EV. Nobody who wants an EV as a standard no-gasoline car is going to look at somebody else's homebrew conversion. Not now, with Model S, Leaf, iMiev, and several other cars available. The buyer of this car will be someone who loves the looks and handling of a Porsche and who specifically wants an EV Porsche. People pay Paul more than this to convert their porsche. (People who have not yet heard that he's no longer doing the quality work he once did.) This one has had Paul's bad work fixed and done right.
I'll consider what you said about donating to a school. The caveat is that to take a tax write-off for the donation, you have to have an appraisal done. The IRS does not take your word on the value if there's an audit, and claiming too high a value can trigger an audit.
For now, I'm just going to see how much I'm offered. I actually have one offer in hand, and soon Gordy will post the official for sale notice.
I'll consider what you said about donating to a school. The caveat is that to take a tax write-off for the donation, you have to have an appraisal done. The IRS does not take your word on the value if there's an audit, and claiming too high a value can trigger an audit.
For now, I'm just going to see how much I'm offered. I actually have one offer in hand, and soon Gordy will post the official for sale notice.
And I'm the one that made the offer and I think I may have offered too much.
Daniel - I'm amending my offer with an expiration date of 10 days from when we talked. After that the offer ends.
Keep in mind that although there is history and meaning to the porsche to any prospective buyer he won't really care for the history - he has to buy it for what it is. And that is a 2003 911 porsche without an engine that doesn't move with a broken/half done ev setup with mostly bad batteries, a motor that has vibration issues, and a driver that is underpowered. It's a mess to inherit and sort out and most of the ev parts may or may not be salvagable - which is a big risk. The buyer wants to buy assets, not liability and risks - all of which depreciate the value.
Think of it this way - whatever you think you're going to have to spend to get the car going... add that up with what my offer is - thats what you're saving with selling the car. Because even after having done what you want to do with it it STILL may not be satisfactory and you may be deeper in the hole.
my two cents for today...
Daniel - I'm amending my offer with an expiration date of 10 days from when we talked. After that the offer ends.
Keep in mind that although there is history and meaning to the porsche to any prospective buyer he won't really care for the history - he has to buy it for what it is. And that is a 2003 911 porsche without an engine that doesn't move with a broken/half done ev setup with mostly bad batteries, a motor that has vibration issues, and a driver that is underpowered. It's a mess to inherit and sort out and most of the ev parts may or may not be salvagable - which is a big risk. The buyer wants to buy assets, not liability and risks - all of which depreciate the value.
Think of it this way - whatever you think you're going to have to spend to get the car going... add that up with what my offer is - thats what you're saving with selling the car. Because even after having done what you want to do with it it STILL may not be satisfactory and you may be deeper in the hole.
my two cents for today...
Noted.
The car is really much better than what the above description implies. I told you all the blemishes in the interest of full disclosure. Anyone who sees the car will understand that it is a nearly complete conversion that only needs a new pack and will then be a fine car with a few minor shortcomings.
The driver is not underpowered. The original speed controller was. The new one is top notch. The vibration is only noticeable at high rpm. All the EV parts now in it, aside from the ruined pack, are excellent. Anyone who sees it will understand this, and of course anyone who wants to see it will be welcome.
However, as we discussed on the phone, I don't think this car meets your needs, and I will not hold you to your previous offer. You need not wait for the ten days to regard your offer as withdrawn. I am determined to full disclosure on the car and I do not want anyone to buy it and then feel unhappy with it. If this means I cannot sell it, then so be it. I will not do to anyone else what Paul did to me.
