Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Coronavirus

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
I really liked your graph, but don't understand these statements about CA. Why would deaths increase based on pending tests? I can understand that the number of positives would increase, but are you saying that a % of those pending positives are already dead?

So far, with all the delays for testing, I have been assuming that the number of reported deaths is a reliable number to track vs. positives. Are you suggesting that deaths are also not been accurately reported?
With such a huge backlog there could be patients who were tested and died before their results came in. I don't know how doctors and/or the data source attribute a death in that case (suspected vs diagnosed ATOD). Anyway, once those tests clear, I imagine CA's numbers will change significantly.

We're all flying blind here. The biggest problem with looking at this data over time is that the testing probably isn't standardized. I imagine early testing was on seriously ill patients and I imagine that now the testing is including less symptomatic people.

Final note, I haven't been able to find a "average deaths per day" or even "average deaths per month" for states and/or counties. I'd like to compare those to the current deaths/day to see the excess today.
 
Testing is still in short supply. As the epidemic got started in early March an individual was at a First Robotics championship in Myrtle Beach. We won, paired with a team from NY NY. Lots of hugs and handshakes and hollering with two teams of 50 people. 10 members of our team came back with flue/bad colds. 9 never went to the doctor and one died suddenly of the flu 3 days later. No tests were available.

Sorry to hear that, and hope the rest stay healthy.
 
It's automated for just the top 20 ... but when I look at the base data, CA is following WA (the bottom blue line). The caveat is that CA has a *huge* backlog of tests according to covidtracking.com.

CA has a whopping 59,500 tests in the "pending" category! More than an order of magnitude more than any other state. If their pending results break like the existing results (9191/33000 or 27% positive), that would add 16,571 positives. Right now they're sitting at 203/9191 deaths/positive, so there's the potential to add ~360 deaths to the total. They only have 203 deaths so far, so their 5.14 DPM would rise to over 10 DPM.

With such a huge backlog there could be patients who were tested and died before their results came in. I don't know how doctors and/or the data source attribute a death in that case (suspected vs diagnosed ATOD). Anyway, once those tests clear, I imagine CA's numbers will change significantly.

We're all flying blind here. The biggest problem with looking at this data over time is that the testing probably isn't standardized. I imagine early testing was on seriously ill patients and I imagine that now the testing is including less symptomatic people.

Final note, I haven't been able to find a "average deaths per day" or even "average deaths per month" for states and/or counties. I'd like to compare those to the current deaths/day to see the excess today.

In other words, you are guessing by applying the same %death rate to the pending results as that for available results. Somehow I have a hard time believing that CA is hiding 360 additional deaths in those pending results. If that is the case, on what day would they count? It should be on the day the death occurred, not when we finally get those pending results cleared. This means CA would need to go back and correct the entire data set for deaths since these results have been 'pending' for weeks!

I am trying to see how effective CA is in flattening the curve for deaths, since number of positives is being underestimated due to lack of testing. I was hoping your graphs would help with that, but looks like this is not helping for CA.
 
Sorry to hear that, and hope the rest stay healthy.
Fortunately the ready have all made a full recovery. And a possible upside to this is we may now all be protected from anti-bodies. Hopefully a few of us can get a test soon to confirm. My hope is there are many more out there who have fought off the disease and are now immune than those who got really sick.
 
Here is a summary of NewYork-Presbyterian Hospital's update from yesterday:

In New York, unless the Javits center takes covid patients it’s not a great option for us.

We are increasing our ICU capacity to 1100 beds.

We are approaching the peak of this which we think will be the next week or two. We still have a ways to go before we see the light at the end of the tunnel.

1,900 inpatients, 487 on ventilators (25%). We took a few patients from other hospitals yesterday, and we were able to transfer 2 patients to the USS Comfort.

There are still no clear treatments for patients.

We are currently using 100,000 masks per day across the enterprise. We are getting more supplies which we are thankful for.

Ventilator capacity: we are fortunate that our anesthesia teams can modify the vents so we can use those.

We have 800 vents, but we need more vents.

Capacity: we are looking to expand on areas that are close to our campuses. Potentially use Bakers Field. A few years ago Columbia put a bubble over the field. We think it’s a promising space, and then we can decide which of our patients we can actually move there. We are going to have to do this to create the capacity for the next few weeks.
 
I imagine early testing was on seriously ill patients and I imagine that now the testing is including less symptomatic people.
Nope. If anything we're testing fewer asymptomatic and moderately symptomatic people. Testing is being done on those who are in at-risk groups with moderate or greater symptoms and anyone with severe symptoms. Standard procedure has been and remains turning people away from hospitals with no test if they aren't severe or at significant risk due to major underlying issue or are of a certain minimum age.

Yes, this is about exactly the opposite of an effective strategy.
 

Interesting results (37% obviously isn't a 'majority' but HCQ was top choice for most effective treatment).

More details, including country-specific treatment info, is here: Largest Statistically Significant Study by 6,200 Multi-Country Physicians on COVID-19 Uncovers Treatment Patterns and Puts Pandemic in Context - Sermo

Vast majority of doctors worldwide and in the U.S. expect a second wave of the outbreak, and "In the U.S., 63% of physicians recommend restrictions be lifted six or more weeks from now and 66% believe the peak is at least 3-4 weeks away."
 
Last edited:
Did you produce graphs or just numbers?
I produced graphs. I'm hoping that someone posts an actual study of onset-to-death.
Here's one study I did find of patients in Washington: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2004500
3 of their 24 patients were still on ventilators at the time the study ended (15,28,19 days after hospital admission). I assume they have a very low chance of survival.
nejmoa2004500_f2-1.jpeg

"censoring" means the study ended before there was an outcome.
 
Final note, I haven't been able to find a "average deaths per day" or even "average deaths per month" for states and/or counties. I'd like to compare those to the current deaths/day to see the excess today.
This wouldn't be particularly useful since far fewer people are dying in car accidents and workplace accidents right now. Flu related deaths are certainly way down as well.
This method would only work in areas where it's really bad, like NYC.
 
Vast majority of doctors worldwide and in the U.S. expect a second wave of the outbreak, and "In the U.S., 63% of physicians recommend restrictions be lifted six or more weeks from now and 66% believe the peak is at least 3-4 weeks away."
I don't see the second wave being a major problem in the US since we already let it spread basically everywhere. If our goal with lockdown was to flatten the curve, should we not be ready to selectively reopen the week after Easter(11 days from now)?

Not one of these Trumpers demanding we go back to work, just seems logical. We clearly aren't having a major impact on infections, spread is going to be near total regardless, and if this is effective the curve will have been flattened by then, so what's the point of extending?

By end of next week, incremental domestic violence deaths alone will be creeping up on any incremental mortality from a tiered return to normal.
 
While not exactly the same thing, having now spoken to a cross-section of friends and family across four continents and spent a lot of time in various forums, I believe what we're witnessing is the Kubler-Ross 5 Stages of Grief model writ large across global society.

Phase 1 Denial. Most people are still stuck in this phase. I think this certainly goes for the US leadership and most of the money in the markets. Public at large for sure. In my own denial phase, I found contorted reasons why I thought the Chinese Communist Party was over-reacting, that professors from esteemed institutions were scaremongering to increase their grants etc... and I went about my business in happy obliviousness. For most people it seems to be on the lines of "this is just flu".
(Most people in the West didn't enter this phase until about a week or so ago, before that they were in what I'd term Phase 0 Ignorance)

Phase 2 Anger. Lashing out at anyone they think looks Chinese. Getting angry about events being cancelled. Angry at the media for hysteria. Getting angry at people like me on the internet who shake them out of Phase 1. I don't recall being in this phase myself, perhaps those around me would disagree?

Phase 3 Bargaining. "Ok I can see there's a problem. But don't worry, because of X, Y, Z it's not as bad as you think. Look, if we strip out the 4 worst countries and only focus on those where the progression of disease is not yet as advanced, the death rate isn't as bad you think. Smart people are working on a treatment. Viruses always blow themselves out. It's only [0.7%/1%/2%], that's trivial. There might be benefits from old people being carried away earlier Etc... There's a few people here at this stage. I was there myself about a week ago when I was mainly focused on the economic impact of the crisis, when I thought generalised Containment was by far the most likely outcome.

Phase 4 Depression. I have spent the past 3-4 days in this phase and it has not been pleasant. I realised that Containment was almost certainly going to fail and we are looking at a once in a century event that will leave none of our lives untouched. And everything I have seen out of health professionals and responsible governments in the last few days tells me that they have realised the same thing.

Phase 5 Acceptance. I'm trying hard to get to this stage with the help of my wife and friends, who are scientifically trained and got here in some cases several weeks ago. Society as a whole is nowhere close to this point. Where they can have a rationale conversation about how we might very well be looking at more deaths globally than the Holocaust (or even worse). And what this means for them and society as a whole.

So what does it look like when you get to Acceptance?

  • Prepare yourself financially. For people that get there early enough, this will mean reducing or eliminating exposures to risk bearing assets like stocks, which are likely to swing with as much volatility as the average human's mood. Since this is an Investor Forum above all else, the most dangerous time will be when society hits Stage 4 Depression. Or to use another related word, Despair.
  • Prepare yourself practically. Get sensible provisions in place. I don't personally expect most countries to face a food shortage but it's peace of mind to know you have a few provisions. If you needed to care for a loved one at home, consider what you'd need. Soap, detergent, masks, digital thermometer, possibly a cheap Blood Pressure reader and O2 saturation / pulse reader. This is all available cheaply on Amazon. If you have a small business, what's your plan for each phase of the crisis?
  • Prepare yourself mentally. Not much advice I can give here. I am youngish (but with an underlying condition). I am trying to get in the mindset that there might be less time left with certain people than I'd imagined. So let's live a lot of life while we can, even if that ends up being in the confines of our home. Try not to dwell on what might happen, don't let little things get to you and try not to speak unkind words. Any more suggestions I'm welcome to hear them.
  • Prepare for the future. None of us know what might shake out of this but there are reasons to be optimistic. We might see societies become less materialistic and selfish, more altruistic and kind. We should see an increased weight placed on the importance of science, education, family. And if the combined horrors of 1914 - 1919 are anything to go by, the 2020s may match the 1920s, a prosperous and exhilarating decade (let's leave the 1930s in the past shall we), powered by technology, productivity gains and positivity.
Best of luck to you all.

Most right thinking people are now well on the road to accepting the scale of the public health crisis. Despite his early very public displays of Denial and Anger, even Donald seems to be getting there. Without hard intervention we were likely looking at world war level casualties. In some less developed countries that is still sadly on the table.

But what is the price for that intervention? I think we’re heading through the same process all over again with respect to the economic impact of the crisis.

The scale and rapidity of job losses we’re seeing throughout most of the world is as far as I am aware, without precedent. And we are only two to three weeks into the process in most of the West.

The cashflow squeeze to businesses large and small is on another level entirely to 2008 and the various government lending schemes are unlikely to much help anyone but those that did not need to borrow. Without the near universal “extend and pretend” we’re seeing from lenders, delinquency rates in loan portfolios would blow through any stress test a financial regulator would care to throw at a bank. The stability of the financial system will soon depend on tax payers either directly bailing out the banks, or as is being attempted in some places, an indirect bail out by taking huge swathes of commercial lending onto the government’s balance sheet (albeit largely in the form of contingent liabilities).

The coming contraction in GDP reminds me of my studies in Ancient Classics, when entire cities would sometimes be suddenly scrubbed from the map in conflict. From the perspective of GDP, that’s the equivalent of what we’re seeing in most major nations. The equivalent of their main economic centres being removed from the game before calculating national economic output. With a cheery wave from almost everybody not to worry, it’ll all somehow be all ok come October, companies will bounce back just fine.

Sure, physical capital is not being destroyed like in a war. But the economic dislocation of human capital we’re seeing, is arguably more egregious in the largely knowledge based economies of the Western world.

The scale of the health crisis for covid was almost universally missed by observers due to quite understandable psychological defence mechanisms. Normalcy bias, optimism bias, cognitive dissonance. Whichever you choose to focus on. Those of us that realised early enough were able to prepare ourselves practically and financially. And for those that trade, to profit.

Now the pending economic crisis is being almost completely ignored by most observers, who instead choose to pass comparison to 1998, 1987, or the more bearish to 2008. Well this isn’t any of those. And there’s a horrific possibility it’s something beyond most people’s ability to conceive.

I’ve been absent from this forum for a few weeks but it staggers me there are still those on the main board who are seeing the rise and fall in TSLA in glorious isolation to what is happening in the rest of the world. “It’s short sellers... it’s journalists... it’s manipulation”. No doubt there will be much disquiet at what at the time of writing seems to be the scrubbing out of After Hours gains post the P&D report.

But the smack that TSLA and everything else has received these weeks, is nothing to what it will feel like if the market adopts the view that we face a depression that blows away anything found in the history books.

I still think Tesla will emerge from this crisis stronger. But there are risks that were not there only 3 months ago. Tesla make cars. Luxury ones at that. Doesn’t matter how good their product is, this crisis is going to whack demand. Maybe they’ll get a juicy loan package from the government. But this crisis is still likely to set the mission back by years not months.

My personal base case now is that the health crisis will not come close to being resolved until sometime in mid to late 2021. Maybe a positive black swan will positively surprise me. But I hear from health professionals in the Infectious Disease unit to expect rolling waves of infection into that timeframe. And there’s a very high likelihood of these waves being accompanied with continued social distancing and blockage of economic activity. Who knows in such a scenario when the economic crisis itself bottoms.

However I am not trading my view. And I freely admit that my view is relatively fringe right now. The positions I took in Phase 1 of the crisis were sufficient to cover the economic needs of my family for two years and I am safely in government backed cash, with some inflation protection. Right now it’s too hard to predict the timing of the market’s realisation but more importantly it causes too much psychological disturbance to bet against the market when it means you’re also betting against humanity. Makes you feel a bit dirty, like how Chanos must feel every morning.

I post this because this place is a brain trust and I want you to rip the macro bear view to pieces. With reason and logic, rather than hope.
 
PSA, directed to everybody, and in particular those people frantically searching for a magic bullet:

The best protection and the best cure against Covid-19 is to not get infected in the first place. Invest your energies in universal precautions. They are easy, and they are cheap. They are known to be effective. And they will do vastly more to stop the epidemic in its tracts that any pill could hope for.

Dr. Sagebrush

Frantic searcher here. My wife is a retail pharmacist, and she showed symptoms of a fever and cough yesterday and I've had to nurse her, while working from home (a condo), with kids in tow. And no tests available to confirm/deny whether or not we're all infected. I couldn't drop the kids off with grandma/grandpa, because of the possibility of being asymptomatic carriers.

Not all of us (if you factor how many people work in healthcare, public safety, and the "essential businesses", AND the people who live with them, this number should be a significant fraction of the general population) can afford to take universal precautions.

Just pointing out that these people (the high risk groups) need to rely on our own immune systems or that magic bullet, because it's only a matter of _when_ we catch it, not _if_.
 
I don't see the second wave being a major problem in the US since we already let it spread basically everywhere. If our goal with lockdown was to flatten the curve, should we not be ready to selectively reopen the week after Easter(11 days from now)?

Not one of these Trumpers demanding we go back to work, just seems logical. We clearly aren't having a major impact on infections, spread is going to be near total regardless, and if this is effective the curve will have been flattened by then, so what's the point of extending?

The IHME model showing 100k deaths is assuming ~3% of the population is infected.

Not enough for any significant herd immunity.

I don’t understand why you think we will be nearly done in late April. We might be nearly done in late May. But we have not quite been able to start the clock on that because not everyone has started yet.

A second wave obviously can’t be allowed to happen. So we’ll need to use the next two months to really work on getting the infrastructure in place to stop that. Have not seen it happening yet. But it is possible. Requires a lot of manpower and technology. China is telling us right now to get prepared for this; hopefully the feds will listen.
 
Here is a summary of NewYork-Presbyterian Hospital's update from yesterday:

In New York, unless the Javits center takes covid patients it’s not a great option for us.
They changed Javits to a COVID facility yesterday.
1,900 inpatients,...
We are currently using 100,000 masks per day
50 masks per inpatient per day? Yikes.
Nope. If anything we're testing fewer asymptomatic and moderately symptomatic people.
That's especially true in NYC metro area and some emerging hotspots. In some areas test criteria are slowly loosening. Just not enough.

They quickly ramped testing from 10k to 100k/day, then hit a wall.

I don't think CA's huge testing backlog is affecting their death count. The labs were told to prioritize inpatient tests, so the backlog should be almost all those with less severe symptoms.
I don't see the second wave being a major problem in the US since we already let it spread basically everywhere.
San Miguel county so far found less than 1% of population has antibodies. If we open back up while infection rate is this high 2.2 million dead becomes the baseline scenario.
 
Noon news here on SFBay area saying hospitals are bracing for a surge and the county is trying to give an up-to-date dashboard of statistics to keep people in the know and be as transparent as they can be wanting people to understand the numbers and situation they pose.

Gov. Newsome is talking about help to small businesses right now.

Well Santa Clara County has published their dashboard. You can find it here for all the latest tracking figures. Dashboards cover cases, hospital and lab testing.

Coronavirus (COVID-19) Data Dashboard - Public Health Department - County of Santa Clara

For whatever reason, the link when it loads does not go to the top of the SCC Health Department site and opens for me on the hospital dashboard. Scroll up to get to the case count and top menu for their site.
 
Last edited: