Competing technologies to BEV

[renim]

Japan plans to import LH from Australia, where a lot of brown coal is mined. Kawasaki Heavy Industries is developing LH tankers for this purpose. Generate hydrogen from brown coal, liquidify it to LH on site, then transfer it to Japan. They plan to collect CO2 and fill the underwater cave from LNG mining with it.

So FCV or move from LNG to LH or high pressure H2 seems to be an energy security related issue for Japan.

I agree that hydrogen filling station would negatively affect property values nearby.

won't happen from brown coal, they can't even sell pellets of brown coal / iron ore blend (a sensible product)

liquid hydrogen from Australia, no, its less risk to just sell the coal or LNG

China, they might sell Japan and Korea liquid hydrogen. and use Australian/Indonesian coal / gas to do so.

 

[hiroshiy]

Thanks, @renim for the info. I'm no expert here, so appreciate your insights. What I heard is that since brown coal is unstable they plan to place the factory directly at the mining location so that mined coal can be spent as soon as mined.

 

[SBenson]

Does anyone have any thoughts on this



nanoFLOWCELL-powered Quant e-Limo approved for german road trials | Fox News

 

[Zzzz...]

Does anyone have any thoughts on this

Love the video: QUANT e-Sportlimousine by nanoFLOWCELL AG

As for flow battery, those are essentially a rechargeable batteries, not a fuel cells. Well one could theoretically refill the liquids, but in absolute majority of cases recharging is an option.

 

[flashflood]

Love the video: QUANT e-Sportlimousine by nanoFLOWCELL AG

As for flow battery, those are essentially a rechargeable batteries, not a fuel cells. Well one could theoretically refill the liquids, but in absolute majority of cases recharging is an option.

I hope it all scales. Battery technology aside, it's a gorgeous car.

 

[pGo]

"A flow-cell of equivalent weight to a lithium-ion battery has five times greater performance.

With a 120 kilowatt-hour flow-cell, Quant claims a range of 372 miles or more. That seems par for the course when compared to the EPA-rated 265 miles of an 85 kWh Tesla Model S, but one assumes the e-Sportlimousine is a great deal lighter thanks to those flow cells, which are presumably smaller than the Tesla's batteries."

Looks super promising if it works!

 

[Zapped]

Love the video: QUANT e-Sportlimousine by nanoFLOWCELL AG

As for flow battery, those are essentially a rechargeable batteries, not a fuel cells. Well one could theoretically refill the liquids, but in absolute majority of cases recharging is an option.

Wow, fantastical
For a second there I thought it was going to morph into a TESLA, LOL

 

[Zzzz...]

A flow-cell of equivalent weight to a lithium-ion battery has five times greater performance.

...

Looks super promising if it works!

Feels like too good to be true. In most battery breakthrough cases there is a fine print if one bother to look closely enough. Some chemistries operate at 70[SUP]o[/SUP]C, and got trouble to operate at room temperature, never mind freezing one. Some have got high self discharge rate, some got very low power density. Some waste energy, for example one need to put 4 kWh for every 3 kWh battery would be capable to discharge. And to many just degrade too fast. In case of this one there absolutely zero real information, and too much marketing. "Cold burning" <-- this marketing gem is even more impressive than the video.

But flow battery idea is an interesting one. For example it should be possible to keep liquids at low level, making car lighter and faster for everyday use and add more range when it needed. And ease of repairing - change electrolyte liquids OR keep them but replace cell part...

 

[Zzzz...]

Well Benz comment probably worth reading. After researching this nanoflow thing a little bit more I fell into same conclusion. flowcell power maybe the next generation power source........

 

[renim]

Yeah and that cost is enough for just one pump. FYI the station uses liquefied hydrogen from nearby factory.

35 MPA refuelling times

70 MPA refuelling times

There is a direct relation between pre-cooling and fueling speed.

Type “A”-Dispenser has -40Cpre-cooling (70&35MPa)

Type “B”-Dispenser has -20Cpre-cooling (70&35MPa)

Type “C”-Dispenser has 0Cpre-cooling (35MPa only)

Type “D”-Dispenser has no pre-cooling (35MPa only)

One of the reasons for the hydrogen's high infrastructure costs is the need for pre-cooling of H2 if it is to be used for 70 MPa tanks. The heat of compression would take the tank temperature into dangerous temperatures (remember, these tanks they have a polymer matrix, never to exceed temperatures of 85c))
Japan is targeting 100 H2 stations at about $4.8 million each, before heavy subsidies, and loosening regulations regarding materials and locations. Even if they get 30% off after the first 100 stations, at $3million per bowser, that is not economically sustainable.

Liquidfied H2 is already pre-chilled, but you can just sense the costs of handling this stuff is serious.

 

[renim]

apart from the obvious cost of infrastructure, this also affects vehicle cost
the tanks need to be validated for -40c to +85c rapid cycling, remember the H2 tanks are fibre composite + have a liner

fibre composite doesn't like 85c temps,
liners have different co-efficient of expansion to fibre composites.

technically, it is possible, but it adds more cost.

since batteries contain more miles per volume than H2 tanks, it just adds to the question, why bother with Hydrogen

 

[Auzie]

Interesting information renim, thanks for posting.

FCV do not make sense on so many levels.

For reasons that are hard to see or understand, Toyota leaders have decided to launch FC car next year. They most likely expect to realize some economic benefit to Toyota with this move, in ways that may be hard to understand from the outside.

Here is Toyota vision, from their website:

Through improvements of conventional technology, as well as pioneering efforts in the application of new technologies, Toyota is taking
great steps to develop eco-cars which will help us become a low carbon society.

It is interesting that the vision starts with conventional technology improvements. Pioneering efforts in the application of new technologies come second. Toyota seem to want to stick to what they do best and what they make money on. That is easy to understand. I am just not sure how going into FCV works for them. I would be very surprised if Toyota leaders ventured into something that did not make economic sense for their business.

For comparison, here is Tesla Motors mission statement:

To accelerate the advent of sustainable transport by bringing compelling mass market electric cars to market as soon as possible.

Very different visions drive different business decisions.

 

[hiroshiy]

Japan has no natural resources thus relying on importing them 100%. Not like the States Japan can't just "not rely on imported oil". That's one of the big reasons to push for H2 infrastructure. We eventually import more LNG and maybe a lot of liquified H2 from non-middle eastern countries.

At least, that's the reason Japanese government tries to push H2 infrastructure in the long term, as a backup to oil and LNG.

That still doesn't justify Japanese global car manufacturers' direction to FCVs though. Maybe big oil as many of you mentioned.

 

[Matias]

But you can easily burn natural gas in ICE.

Natural gas vehicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why refine NG to H2, when you can use NG directly.

 

[glhs272]

Japan has no natural resources thus relying on importing them 100%. Not like the States Japan can't just "not rely on imported oil". That's one of the big reasons to push for H2 infrastructure. We eventually import more LNG and maybe a lot of liquified H2 from non-middle eastern countries.

At least, that's the reason Japanese government tries to push H2 infrastructure in the long term, as a backup to oil and LNG.

That still doesn't justify Japanese global car manufacturers' direction to FCVs though. Maybe big oil as many of you mentioned.

I still don't get it. H2 is just an energy storage medium (and a poor one at that). You can't drill for H2. The energy has to come from somewhere (imported oil, natural gas, etc.).

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

But you can easily burn natural gas in ICE.

Natural gas vehicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But then you'll still have ICEs.

One of the understated effects of FCV would be a move to an electric drivetrain. It's why I consider the idea that HFCV is a big fossil fuel conspiracy to be complete bunk. Successful FCV would make it easy for manufacturers to vary the BEV:FCV ratio according to the state of technologies and supporting infrastructure and that ratio would naturally improve over time because home refueling is both cheaper and more convenient.

 

[hiroshiy]

@Matias: LNG also should be imported and same as gas. H2 advantage is less CO2 at least in Japan, which I personally think is a very selfish idea

Glhs272: Japan wants somebody to burn coal or something to generate electricity, crack water to generate H2, hide CO2 in somewhere else, liquify H2 and send them over to Japan. Some government officials seems to think about using brown coals, which still can be used to generate electricity but hard to move/export.

 

[nwdiver]

IMO any fuel source should have to demonstrate cost effectiveness (<$0.10/mile Well2wheels) from a carbon neutral source to qualify for CARB. In other words... until the cost of electrolysis is brought down, FCVs should not receive any credit.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

IMO any fuel source should have to demonstrate cost effectiveness (<$0.10/mile Well2wheels) from a carbon neutral source to qualify for CARB. In other words... until the cost of electrolysis is brought down, FCVs should not receive any credit.

That is illogical. The whole point of the ZEV credit system is to force manufacturers to invest in new technologies. But according to your rule, they wouldn't be able to invest in technologies until they're cheap.

Besides, even at $200/kWh, Tesla could be producing batteries that end up costing consumers more than $0.10/mile. Expensive technology with cheap fuel doesn't help.

 

[Yggdrasill]

@Matias: LNG also should be imported and same as gas. H2 advantage is less CO2 at least in Japan, which I personally think is a very selfish idea

CO2 is a global problem, not a local problem, so it's completely pointless to shift it around from one place to another.

Electric cars could help Japan become self sufficient with energy, while this is a lot more difficult with hydrogen. Assuming the energy comes from solar and wind, you need 2-3 times as much energy per kilometer going the hydrogen route. That means you need 2-3 times the amount of solar panels and wind turbines. Plus all the infrastructure, of course.

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That is illogical. The whole point of the ZEV credit system is to force manufacturers to invest in new technologies. But according to your rule, they wouldn't be able to invest in technologies until they're cheap.

Besides, even at $200/kWh, Tesla could be producing batteries that end up costing consumers more than $0.10/mile. Expensive technology with cheap fuel doesn't help.

I sort of agree with nwdiver. Expensive technology with cheap fuel has potential, expensive technology with expensive fuel doesn't.