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and is confirmed for Norway and Japan - other regions may follow.
Mark Petersen
Model S EU P71
TonyWilliams
Active Member
Offering this adapter anywhere in the world will make it "available" everywhere in the world. You can pay $160 for the english CHAdeMO standard now:
http://www.webstore.jsa.or.jp/webstore/Com/FlowControl.jsp?lang=en&bunsyoId=TS+D+0007%3A2012&dantaiCd=JIS&status=1&pageNo=0
Not quite, since the EU cars will have a different charge port, and thus will require a different adapter than US cars. Not sure what charge port they'll have in Japan.
TonyWilliams
Active Member
Well, I'm not worried about the charge port, as that can (and will be) hacked. Getting the communications to convert Tesla-speak to CHAdeMO and vice versa, "priceless".
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Do they meaning the adapters or chargers? Norway and Japan have a huge market share of CHAdeMO cars and chargers.
If it's really a cross-region licensing issue, that might get Tesla in trouble (in which case there might be a "region lock" on the adapters).
I'm going to guess Japan will share the US charge port. Japan, like the US, doesn't have widespread 3-phase.
TMs hesitance to commit on CHAdeMO might have strategic reasons.
Remember when IBM announced that OS/2 will support Windows applications? From that day on, most software vendors stopped to develop a dedicated OS/2 version of their killer apps. The pledge of compatibility eradicated the platform support.
Now if Tesla would bring a portable CHAdeMO adapter to market, Model S owners would push for CHAdeMO stations filling in the gaps of the supercharger network the following day. This helps TM, but the other QC-capable competitors too. Surely Tesla prefers to direct all money and support to expand the SC network.
If a CHAdeMO adapter with a Tesla 02 plug is to be developed, it could as well be a hardware upgrade that is bolted to a CHAdeMO station. Making it multi headed. That way, TM can control in which markets CHAdeMO is supported.
Remember when IBM announced that OS/2 will support Windows applications? From that day on, most software vendors stopped to develop a dedicated OS/2 version of their killer apps. The pledge of compatibility eradicated the platform support.
Now if Tesla would bring a portable CHAdeMO adapter to market, Model S owners would push for CHAdeMO stations filling in the gaps of the supercharger network the following day. This helps TM, but the other QC-capable competitors too. Surely Tesla prefers to direct all money and support to expand the SC network.
If a CHAdeMO adapter with a Tesla 02 plug is to be developed, it could as well be a hardware upgrade that is bolted to a CHAdeMO station. Making it multi headed. That way, TM can control in which markets CHAdeMO is supported.
Seattle
Member
The thing that's different about Tesla compared to IBM is that Tesla is completely in charge of their ecosystem. Other cars can't use it and no one makes or provides their charger locations. Well, except for > 30 amp j1772, but that's the only thing that competes with Tesla's chargers, because they can be used by others. Since there's no single charger that roadsters and m.s. can use, here in washington state where we owners are paying for some chargers, we end up with dual stations with say roadster tip plus m.s. converter cable, or do we just go for high amp j1772.
I don't know what Elon is thinking here but this should not be an issue. I doubt Tesla supporting chademo (no, I refuse to use their goofy mixed case name anymore, pathetic...) would move the meter one way or the other. I think it's an SAE vs chademo war and it's SAE's to lose. The fact that chademo is just now getting an English translation of their specifications doc speaks to that in volumes (pun semi intended).
I was very excited to see the battery swap demo last night but I have to say that given the price and the fact that they will be located in the same place as the SC's, we will still have the same doughnut holes in range as we did before. A CHAdeMO adapter would open things up considerably on our weekend jaunts off the beaten path into the wild and rural WA state even after all the planned Tesla Charging/swapping stations are in.
I respectfully disagree - it seems to me that Tesla's stance will have a major effect.
Tesla are shaping up to have a substantial market share over the next couple of years. It's hard to define what the relevant market shares are for fast charging demand - on the one hand you could argue that LEAFs need charging more often than Model S due to their shorter range, but on the other hand many LEAFs (EV enthusiasts excepted) will be bought as commuter cars and never taken on long trips at all, while Model S are being sold on their long-range capability. Whichever way you calculate it, Tesla comes out with a big slice - maybe in the region of 50%.
Even if you think it will all be decided by politics rather than market demand, the presence of those cars is a potential boost to one side or the other.
So if Tesla come out saying that the way to get their cars onto public fast charging stations is with J1772 (ie.they release a good/cheap Frankenplug adapter, and a bad/expensive CHAdeMO one (or none at all)), that gives a big boost to the J1772 camp; alternatively, if they say that CHAdeMO is the way to go (by releasing a well-engineered CHAdeMO adapter at an attractive price and not bothering with J1772-DC), that makes it hard for anyone to argue commercially or politically that a Frankenplug roll-out is justifiable.
At the moment, Tesla haven't declared their hand. In the USA they've leant slightly to the J1772 side by making the cars electrically J1772, but that's not decisive given the need for adapters to either system. They seem to have missed a trick with the existing J1772 adapters - if they'd made the adapters locking, by adding a sliding piece equivalent to this then they'd be all set for J1772-DC-level1 without further work.
In Europe, we still don't know exactly what the european Model S is going to look like - Tesla have said 'Mennekes' or 'compatible to Mennekes', but that's in the context of AC: they haven't explained how Supercharger access fits in to this. It does rather suggest the extended Mennekes (euro-Frankenplug), but that would mean they've compromised the max supercharging rate and it is also unclear how they fit the connector in the space available on the car. It's still possible that they have done something else like Mennekes for AC-only and the existing Tesla connector (on the other side?) for supercharging. If they really have gone with extended Mennekes, then that's a big boost for the Frankenplug side.
So, your point is that tesla will have such market share that what ever they support in the standards world will win. I think you are looking at 4 or 5 years, optimistically, before that could possibly be true. Yes, tesla owns the high end (for now) but that is 20K cars this year (give or take) and maybe 30K next but the high end market has it's limits. I don't have a sense of how model X will do but again there are limits to that market segment. Maybe Gen III will do the trick but that's sheer speculation at this point and we are already into 2017. And, we haven't even talked about potential competition yet. I do believe the success of the S has been a total wake up call to the majors so I expect every automaker to have a mainstream EV in the next few years (and I don't count those 75 miles per charge cars as mainstream). In short, I don't think Tesla will have enough market share clout to make a difference in the standards wars. Especially during the period where it matters for picking the winning standard. I'm a Tesla fan but I just don't see domination happening. And, my bigger point is "don't fight a standards war on top of my car - let me charge from anything". Imagine how crazy the ICE world would have been without standard pumps nozzles and so on. GM gas stations only filling GM cars? Electrons don't care how they get to the battery and, frankly, I don't either.
Well, I wouldn't put it that strongly - just that over the next 2-3 years they are a big slice of the market (not all of it, and not necessarily dominant, but a big slice). So, not enough to resolve the issue, but definitely enough to "move the meter" as you put it.
You are almost certainly right that it will take a good number of years to call the final result, and by that time there will (hopefully) be a lot more players. But quite a lot of infrastructure seems to be going in now, and the momentum from these years will affect what comes after.
Well, the ICE world ended up with separate hoses for diesel, regular and premium gasoline. My most optimistic view of the future is electric stations with multiple 'hoses' for at least two of CHAdeMO/J1772/Tesla (or in Europe, CHAdeMO, DC-over-Mennekes, high power 3-phase over Mennekes - since Renault appear to be backing the third horse of high power AC).
The economics have to favour putting multi-standard outputs/adatpers on the chargers rather than multiple inputs/adapters on the cars: there will be a much larger number of cars needing to be capable of fast charging than chargers to charge them. Having drivers carry adapters seems like a short-term expedient, unless they become so cheap and convenient that everyone is happy to own and carry the full set (unlikely).
We're not that far apart and it is kind of a coin toss how it will actually turn out. Probably the biggest point of departure is how we view the power of owning a large slice of a very small pie. What ever company ships, say, 250K EVs in a year probably gets to decide.
One minor point - having different hose/nozzles for different types of fuel is actually a smart thing. Imagine how you would feel if you filled your gasoline car tank with diesel. And the premium and regular nozzles fit the same tank port. I'm just glad there is no such thing as premium electrons.
pilotSteve
Active Member
I was at the Burlington, WA Supercharger ribbon cutting ceremony today and spoke to a marketing manager for Tesla. I asked him about chademo adaptor and he said it was coming but harder to do because of the oft heard line about chademo charger tells the car what it want and all the other chargers ask the car what it needs. He said that it would be about $1500 and probably not this year. Of course, take that with a grain of salt. I'm sure there are approximately N different answers to this question, where N is the number of Tesla employees,
It was a great event. I either heard the answer differently (I sometimes hear what I want to hear :~) or heard a concurrent conversation. I heard that it would be available this year and that it is definitely coming to the US with the release of the S in Japan, that the adapter has to trick the CHAdeMO charging station into thinking it's in control while letting the car regulate the charging process. from what I gathered, the estimate of cost was a wild guess. I'm not holding my breath but it helps quell the jitters a bit just to hear encouragement that it's coming... this has been affirmed enough times over the last year that I'm deciding to believe it. I was also told that some HPWC's would be added in some key destination places to hep supplement the mid route super chargers. I put in another wimpy request for a UMH 30A tt30 adapter... I'd like the drip irrigation and the fire hose please, LOL!
I think the only difference in what we each heard was the US date. The most important thing is that we are hearing "yes, it will get released in the US" and that's a big improvement over the previous random and muddled messaging. I (think I) heard Japan market towards the end of the year and then a rollout in the US after that. But, I would gladly be completely wrong for it to be this year.
By the way, it was good to meet you at the Burlington event.
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