It'll be fine. One of the beautiful features Starlink could potentially provide here is multicasting. The available bandwidth could send software updates and roadside wildlife GPS reports to all cars in a specific footprint. Just keep multicasting it until every car has a full copy. Or close enough to one.
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Car Network connectivity solutions 2G-3G-4G-5G - Australia
- Thread starter e-enthusiast30
- Start date
Max Spaghetti
Member
Work. (When they turn 4G off).
Actually 90% of Teslas are probably located in those 5G areas. But it's not relevant until they turn 4G off.
Not that I can see, with any of the normal phone or data plans. Anyway, again irrelevant until they turn 4G off. They can connect to 4G while it's still available.
Which is why installing it in the first place provides some future-proofing, or at least saving a potential future large expense when they turn 4G off, which was the whole point of the discussion.
There is a good chance that the reason they haven't done it yet is cost. Or no perceived rush.
But there is always the Elon quote that went something like "this is the last car you will ever own". A shame if connectivity breaks in 10 years' time. 5G has been around for a few years now. 62% of Americans have access to 5G. I'm hoping my Tesla lasts longer than 10 years. My Toyotas always did.
Cost, coverage, and availability of hardware
Very few 5G spots and all of the required functionalities covered by 4G for the foreseeable future at a cheaper hardware price.
What EV functionality are we looking for that only 5G can provide?
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4G/LTE will stick around for the foreseeable future, probably at least into the next decade. However, there are use cases where 5G enables capabilities 4G simply can't. Vehicle-to-vehicle and vehicle-to-infrastructure communications (think networked self-driving cars, and autonomous traffic lights that adjust in real-time based on traffic loads) require very low latency and reliable communications, for which 5G is better suited. I would surmise and agree that Tesla possibly doesn't see wide adoption of this technology (at present anyway) as it requires investment from other parties, so in the interest of saving some cash perhaps they've decided to forego the 5G capabilities for now.
On a personal level, I just feel Tesla equipping their vehicles with 2G/3G capable modems (2G was turned off in 2016, 3G has begun shutdown and further teclo's scheduled to be turned off this year) and not 5G (active in Australia since 2019) in a new car in 2024 seems antiquated.
Max Spaghetti
Member
In my foreseeable future I see 6G being rolled out by the end of this decade and a 4G shutdown mid next decade. There is only so much spectrum available, so the older technologies get retired to free up spectrum for the newer technologies - this is why 2G was and now 3G is being retired. So far no new generation of cellular technology has been backwards compatible with older modems.
I already answered that I wasn't looking for any functionality that only 5G can provide. I was looking for compatibility with the cellular service that will be in use in 10 years' time, (or whenever 4G is retired) or at least some thought being put into an upgrade-path by-design - as it seems that early 3G Model S owners outside of the USA have been let down by this already.
That not only require 5G in cars, but multiple 5G access points on roads and highways and regulatory changes re autonomous driving. That's years away realistically even with Elon time. I don't see how anyone would/could design an expensive 5G module into a car back in 2017 when the M3 was released internationally, without any knowledge of the type of spectrum that may be used by each regulatory authority.
5g can operates over a wide range of frequencies from 4g like frequencies to mm wave frequencies. However an individual 5G module is designed to only operate over a few/one frequencies. Current 5g are operating at approx 4g frequencies and are not considered to be true 5g by some.
The super high speed and super high data bandwidths require very high (mm wave) frequencies that are not even in use today. Those super high frequencies also have very limited range of effectiveness. In order for these to be involved with autonomous vehicles, 5G would need to be deployed along roads and highways at multiple points, not just at typical mobile tower
Even in 2024, Telstra only has 5G in very limited locations - some major cities mainly and they are 4g type frequencies. I don't think current 5g can even support Level 5 autonomous driving requiring V2V communication. Certainly won't be within the usual iterative lifespan of a EV model.
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Agreed, hence my comment regarding the requirement of investment from outside parties. Even moreso in Australia as our population is so geographically dispersed. You did ask 'What EV functionality are we looking for that only 5G can provide?' which is V2V and V2I (Ultra-Reliable Low Latency Communications is also a key feature of 5G).
5G does operate over multiple bands, including within what would be typical 4G spectrum and even 3G. Once 3G is turned off, expect this spectrum be refarmed by telco's into their 4G/5G networks as a priority. iPhone's in the US (and to a degree, Australia) already operate across multiple 5G bands inc. mmWave (700MHz - 39Ghz) iPhone 5G freqencies
While limited and predominately in capital cities, mmWave is in use today by both Optus, Vodafone and Telstra. Telstra has 400+ 5G mmWave sites currently in operation. The limiting factor is compatible handsets that can utilise the spectrum. The latest evolution of 5G is here
Telstra's 5G network covers over 85% of the Australian population. I wouldn't use the term 'very limited'. I travel to regional QLD/NSW often and more times than not get 5G in the towns I pass through.
While I've strayed a little off-topic, the argument stands if Apple/Samsung can source modems that cover 2G - 5G technologies, so can Tesla, and allow consumers to benefit from 5G capabilities, now and into the future.
Not only does it provide redundancy if 4G/LTE goes offline and load balance demand for data (seeing as we can't fall back to 2G/3G anymore). If we also look at the biggest 5G market in the world, China, 5G is expected to overtake 4G as the predominant mobile technology this year, further justifying adding 5G capability to at least Shanghai-built vehicles.
But Apple /samsung has not put any mm wave 5G modems in its phones for the Australian market. Best I can ascertain is a Google phone.
They are mostly using 5g modems with much lower frequencies in the 4G range - slower speed but greater range.
The point is 5g mm wave - the kind that people say are needed for mass V2V communications and Level 5 autonomy is not yet even at the ubiquitous stage. There is no need for its implementation in cars as currently all functions can be supported by the cheaper 4G. FSD alpha is not even available let alone Level 5. Heck we don't even have enough supercharging on many highways or for that matter quality dashcams. Wipers are good though.
Installing something for the sake of it without a business case for it does not make sense. Do it at the right time not before
Priit
Active Member
Im on Telstra wholesale network for the past 4 years with my phone and I had 5G on Gold Coast until about 6 months ago when it looks like Telstra pulled the plug on my 5G and reverted me to 4G. No change to my phone plan. Over the last few years I have noticed if I ever go more than 50km west from the coast I often lose all reception or just revert to 3G reception. When they switch that 3G off later this year, the reception gaps will get much bigger. Currently I can often drive the car out of the maps range and the maps will not load the new areas when the reception is not there and streaming music is impossible. I do not believe 5G will help with that (Getting that satellite to cell from Starlink to 4G phones might help more in those areas), When Telstra says they cover the population areas, that does not mean roads where you drive, just places with many houses clumped together. With the hilly landscape inland from here you are most of the time between mountains with low to no reception. For car the roads are more important and way less covered, so I can understand the low priority to upgrade the modem in the car (at least for Australian market) as the benefit will at current stage is almost non existing. If their 5G modem in the future uses same frequencies as their 2G/3G/4G modem, then it should be a straight swap of the module as the antenna is specific to the frequencies.
We could speculate a few reasons why you lost 5G access but being on the wholesale network already puts you in 2nd place to network access priority against OG Telstra customers.
You are correct, the statement is 5G covers 'population', not 'Australian geographical mass' at large. I do agree, Australia is in a tricky position where our landscape and population centres are so dispersed that we only have to look at the NBN for how costly it can be to outlay communications across our country and the gaps that remain between them. Any satellite-to-vehicle/cellular communications will be an interesting space to watch for future development, even if it's slower speeds at first.
I'm not touting 5G as the fixer of 4G/LTE coverage, it's just newer technology that is there to supplement it and do extra things that 4G can't, especially in congested areas.
Perhaps the modem is already 5G capable and just requires a firmware update in future as we've seen with other updates pushed to legacy vehicles, but I don't like our chances there.
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Max Spaghetti
Member
5G operates in 3 bands, low/mid (same as existing cellular) and high (mm-wave, not used previously).
They needed to get rid of the 2G/3G low/mid band towers to allow 5G to re-use the same frequencies. You shouldn't end up with less rural coverage with 3G retirement, it will just be replaced with low band 5G (700-900 MHz), which is the long range/low data rate band suitable for rural. 5G will just make more efficient use of it. The mid bands (1800-3600 MHz) are more suited to higher density areas, although also work well in rural areas with good line of sight (flat, rather than mountainous), and support higher data rates. High/mm-wave band (26-28 GHz) is designed to support more devices at even higher data rates but only short range, so suitable for high density environments.
Yes, the Australian mmWave market is not mature and it's probably a 2-fold problem where the lack of capable handsets is inhibiting network growth, and the telcos don't want to expand the network when no one can use it. Who moves first here
mmWave has its own business case for future use as you've mentioned, which I agree, the technology is nowhere near matured in Aus and could be a waste to implement right now. But to quote you, "5g can operates over a wide range of frequencies from 4g like frequencies to mm wave frequencies. However an individual 5G module is designed to only operate over a few/one frequencies. Current 5g are operating at approx 4g frequencies and are not considered to be true 5g by some." is incorrect, 5G modems already exist that operate across low-mid-high 5G spectrum. They may be cost-prohibitive, however, which I think is the basis for your argument.
In Australia however, we already use low and mid-band 5G spectrum right now, with mmWave (high-band) in small areas.
We might have to agree to disagree, but I'd rather a low-mid band 5G capable modem in my vehicle that I can use, over a 2G/3G capable modem that I can no longer use.
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Zoltrix77
Member
The secret to full Tesla network access at a cheap price is Boost mobile.
5G onwards is different from the 3G to 4G move. All 5G networks in Australia are still running on a 4G backbone. There are no 5G SA (standalone) deployments yet in Oz. One of the difficulties from a network perspective is the fact that 5G SA requires IPv6 and does not support IPv4. I therefore expect 4G/LTE to stick around far longer than 3G has after 4G entered the picture.
You can easily test whether you're on a 5G SA network or no by looking at the ping times in e.g. speedtest. 5G latency is much improved over 4G. With 5G you can expect to see 5ms or better ping times. With 4G, it's never below 16ms or thereabouts.
Unless things have changed recently, Aldi will only give you access to 98.8% of the population (wholesale Telstra network). Telstra & Boost will get 99.6% (ie. full Telstra network coverage).Aldi mobile ftw
Haha close enough, although that probably excludes Adelaide so let’s stay on Telstra
I was pleasantly surprised on my last trip to Vic and back, there wasn’t a single time I didn’t have connectivity.
Although I guess most of the main roads are well serviced these days. Some places in regional vic are pretty ordinary (Beechworth, Eldorado, tallangatta) but Telstra is still the best option as the others are marginal at best.
Yep. Boost is the only 3rd party network with full coverage. And has better access to 5G than many of the other Telstra MVNOs.
Personally use Woolworths/ Everyday Mobile due to the once a month 10% discount.. basically pays for my plan every month (I'm on the $170 / 125GB 12mth plan)
Zoltrix77
Member
Haha close enough, although that probably excludes Adelaide so let’s stay on Telstra
I was pleasantly surprised on my last trip to Vic and back, there wasn’t a single time I didn’t have connectivity.
Although I guess most of the main roads are well serviced these days. Some places in regional vic are pretty ordinary (Beechworth, Eldorado, tallangatta) but Telstra is still the best option as the others are marginal at best.
Close enough is a big difference, that is population, the missing 'bit' is a hell of a lot of land mass.
Well, yes, but it is prepaid only, with no data rollover. I prefer Belong postpaid, which although gets access to the slightly smaller Telstra “wholesale” 4G/5G network footprint, has data rollover, so unused data one month rolls over to the following month with no cap on how much you can accumulate
Each to their own
