Calling P85D owners world-wide for survey and complaint letter

[Matias]

Are you sure you are not talking about this http://www.auto-outlet.fi/wp-content/themes/autokauppa/images/tesla_taulukko_fi.jpg

Which has that disclaimer, but doesn't contain P85D. Back in that day they told also P85 actual max power with the battery and inverter.

 

[legislator]

And posting screenshots of the website probably doesn't hold up much legal value due to this note:

No Warranties Or Representations

THE INFORMATION ON THESE INTERNET SITES IS PROVIDED BY TESLA MOTORS, INC. "AS IS" AND TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW, IS PROVIDED WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR ANY PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON INFRINGEMENT. WHILE THE INFORMATION PROVIDED IS BELIEVED TO BE ACCURATE, IT MAY INCLUDE ERRORS OR INACCURACIES.

 

[Matias]

Things are getting pretty desperate, if you need to pull "you should not trust Tesla" -card.

 

[LetsGoFast]

When Tesla put up 691hp on teslamotors.com there was a note which said "** Tested in accordance with ECE R85. This dyno based test does not take the battery into account."

That's quite interesting and the first time anyone has said that. Reading Rule 85, it asks for the manufacturer to certify Maximum power in kw that the motor is capable of (independent of the power controller) as well as the maximum effective current supplied to the motor in amps and for how many seconds.

It would be fascinating to see how Tesla answered those questions. It appears to be a mandatory filing to sell a car in the Netherlands and might be a public record accessible to anyone.

Full text of Regulation 85 for anyone who was as ignorant as me about ECE before.

 

[Matias]

I guess you shouldn't trust Elon or TM website.
Here is Elon saying P85D has 691 hp.

https://youtu.be/p6Y-QAHDGpQ?t=2m4s

 

[legislator]

Am I the only one with this information in the owners manual or didn't anyone notice it?

 

[LetsGoFast]

I found an EU report discussing the rule and it includes this bit, talking about how the power ratings are to be determined:

In the case of electric drive trains, the net power test consists of a run at the full setting of the throttle controller. Measurements must be taken at a sufficient number of motor speeds to define the power curve between zero and the highest motor speed recommended by the manufacturer. The regulation also includes a test to determine the maximum 30 minutes power (for electric drive trains only). This means the maximum net power that the electric drive train can deliver over a period of 30 minutes, as an average. During the test, the drive train is run at a power which is the best estimate of the manufacturer for the maximum 30 minutes of power. The speed must be in a range, at which the net power is greater than 90 percent of the maximum power measured in the net power test. Speed and power must be recorded and the power must be in a range of ±5 percent of the power value at the start of the test. The net power and the maximum 30 minutes power indicated by the manufacturer are accepted if they do not differ by more than ± 2 percent for maximum power and more than ± 4 percent at the other measurement points on the curve with a tolerance of ±2 percent for engine or motor speed

I read that to say that the manufacturer's power rating is independently tested in Europe. If this is so, it is going to be hard to complain about the result unless the power rating certified does not match the power rating advertised.

 

[Matias]

Legistlator, how is this relevant considering the question what Tesla said about specs on its website?

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I read that to say that the manufacturer's power rating is independently tested in Europe. If this is so, it is going to be hard to complain about the result unless the power rating certified does not match the power rating advertised.

Which is the whole point. Advertised specs are not right.

 

[legislator]

Legistlator, how is this relevant considering the question what Tesla said about specs on its website?

I think every bit of information which can help shed some light on this matter is relevant. I'm replying to OP, feel free to stop reading my comments.

 

[LetsGoFast]

Am I the only one with this information in the owners manual or didn't anyone notice it?

My Norwegian isn't what it might be. Do I understand correctly that they are listing 193 kW as the max power of the "big" engine and 145 kW as the max power of the small engine? Because that's only ~453hp, which begs the question of how they can certify the power train at 453hp and advertise 691hp.

 

[Johan]

My Norwegian isn't what it might be. Do I understand correctly that they are listing 193 kW as the max power of the "big" engine and 145 kW as the max power of the small engine? Because that's only ~453hp, which begs the question of how they can certify the power train at 453hp and advertise 691hp.

Correct. Bu it also, for example, shows voltage at 320 which is definately toward the very low end of operating specs. I.e. they're testing the motor not with optimum conditions but closer to worst real-life conditions. For this reason, for example, my official registration card for my P85 says motor power: 71kW. This is some kind of low number that designates a sort of continous motor power here in Norway. Has no meaning in real life. Which is unfortunately also true when it comes to Teslas 691 hp numnber (before Ludicrous, which current P85D owners are supposed to pay for for some reason).

 

[Matias]

But you need to be capable on sustaining that power 30 mins. So peak power is higher.

"The regulation also includes a test to determine the maximum 30 minutes power (for electric drive trains only). This means the maximum net power that the electric drive train can deliver over a period of 30 minutes, as an average"

 

[LetsGoFast]

Then that is probably the maximum power that the car can handle for 30 minutes continuous. The regulation also requires them to certify an absolute max power.

 

[MuppetOwl]

The nowegian service document is wrong. The service manual in all other languages show other numbers

 

[jpet]

I'm not saying it's still there, but now they state "motor power" and 221hp+470hp. It used to be under options/specifications. Search for "ECE R85" in your owners manual and you will see what Tesla means by "motor power"

On the Belgian site the motor power numbers currently advertised for the P85D are 262 front and 510 back:

My P85D was produced in January, so it is part of the first batch of cars that were built for the European market. When I received the car, I also received an EC certificate of conformity dated January 21, 2015. I'm wondering if more recently built P85Ds have the same numbers in the power plant section of this certificate:

193 kW front back then translates to x1.362 = 262.943 PK (European HP) so this matches the currently advertised number.
350 kW rear back then translates to 476.839 PK and this no longer matches the currently advertised number of 510 PK.

When I ordered the car the advertised PK number was 700 (221 front and 479 back) but apparently the certificate states 262 front and 476 back.

Also note the lines on Maximum hourly output and Maximum 30min power. I have no idea what they exactly measure or stand for but they might help understanding the real life performance of the P85D.

 

[sorka]

When Tesla put up 691hp on teslamotors.com there was a note which said "** Tested in accordance with ECE R85. This dyno based test does not take the battery into account."

Why would you still think the car would be able to dyno 691hp with the 85kW battery?

That's just flat out false. Please show us where and when. I've browsed multiple dates and don't see that note next to the 691 advertised power anywhere.

Internet Archive: Wayback Machine

 

[legislator]

Well, that is exactly the problem, it used to be listed under options/specifications, hence my screenshot from the owners manual which was the only thing I could still find. It doesn't mean the information is false as it once was there and the P85D and P85 is well known for having the same battery and rear engine. What did the "MyDesign" PDF you got after ordering say about horsepower?

 

[LetsGoFast]

193 kW front back then translates to x1.362 = 262.943 PK (European HP) so this matches the currently advertised number.
350 kW rear back then translates to 476.839 PK and this no longer matches the currently advertised number of 510 PK.

When I ordered the car the advertised PK number was 700 (221 front and 479 back) but apparently the certificate states 262 front and 476 back.

The net of the certification conforms well with the advertisement and as I understand the regulation was tested and certified by the EU. This strongly suggests that a legal claim would be a real uphill battle. I also note that EU standard calls for testing the motor entirely independently of the battery and power supply.

The difference between the current ad numbers and your certification presumably reflects "ludicrous" mode.

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That's just flat out false. Please show us where and when. I've browsed multiple dates and don't see that note next to the 691 advertised power anywhere.

If it existed in the past, it would only have been on EU facing sites. That regulation doesn't apply in the US.

 

[Hookmaker]

Roll out or not and long discussions, I'm sorry but I don't really care. Tesla has sold the P85D under fiery advertising billboards (and they still do - including the many many times Elon himself has confirmed it orally) that with P85D they have reached their target of creating an equal to the ML F1 in 0-60 mph acceleration which is 3.2 sec measured WITHOUT 1 foot roll-out. I would like Tesla to verify this in my P85D or any of the other members of this group for that matter (I am even willing to give 0,2-0,3 because of my glass roof, ultra sound system or whatever). I am however absolutely certain that that this is impossible.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Personally I am mostly annoyed about the free high speed upgrade that turned into a 5000USD upgrade... 0-100kph times is simply false advertising even though the car is plenty fast for me

darthy, Yup, that whole over the air high speed upgrade morphing into ludicrous mode does have a stink about it.

^^ I definitely agree with this. Tesla, for some time, had a footnote at the bottom of their web page on the P85D that said a forthcoming software update would unleash performance at high speed not previously seen outside of Tesla. As far as I can tell, Tesla never released such a software update. Tesla did release a software update that improved the P85D's acceleration from 0-60 by 0.1s, but that improved acceleration - not high speed performance. It's starting to look more and more like this footnote was turned into the Ludicrous update after Tesla encountered some engineering issues.

Tesla promised a free, software update to unleash some super performance at high speed that never came. Then Tesla announced a hardware upgrade to unleash such performance for $5,000. It's not difficult to draw a conclusion.

As for buying blindly - the onus in most parts of the world is for commercial sellers to accurately describe their products in their sales and marketing. Failure to do so means lawsuits. If Tesla don't want lawsuits then they should quit misdescribing their products. The company can build a car from scratch but seemingly can't tell you the performance characteristics? That doesn't add up.

Well, if my entire purchase decision of over $100,000 hinged on one single product specification, I think I would have made some effort to determine whether that specification was achievable before I spent so much money on that product. Companies make all sorts of claims about their products, and list all kinds of specifications, but that doesn't mean you'll be able to duplicate those results under any conditions at any time. I'm simply talking about a situation where it all comes down to that one number, and nothing else matters.

To those who are singularly focused on this discrepancy in 0-60 times overseas, was this the ONLY reason you bought the car? Did you not receive anything else in the bargain? That's why I asked my question about whether anyone was actually damaged by this. If Tesla did advertise the correct 0-60 time as determined by you, would that have changed your purchase decision? Would any of you have purchased a F-1 (they run in the millions, I believe) or a Veyron? Would you not have purchased a Tesla at all? Would you have bought an 85D instead?