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Behold the Terafactory (aka Terrafactory)

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To recap, the theory I've been advancing is that the world will only need a fixed number of gigafactories in perpetuity owing to the potential for technology to grow energy density faster than global population growth.

On what basis will that potential become reality?

For instance, suppose GM believed that 200 would be required. This of course is a $1T investment a cross the industry. GM may be tempted to think that the have plenty of time. That they can wait until EV pent ration gets upto 3 or 4% before investing in their first gigafactory. But, by that time there may well be 10 to 15 gigafactories already built or in the pipeline. However, if only 20 gigafactories are ever economically justified to be built, they are waiting until there will be quite poor return on their investment. If they want to maintain a 10% share of the auto market. They will need 2 gigafactories. Sadly there may not be enough time to build 2 of them. They may be too late to the party and find themselves needing to make an investment that destroys shareholder value in an attempt to preserve market share, or GM will irrevocably lose market share. So there is an existential risk to any automaker that overestimate how long they can put off buying into the Terrafactory.

Why is vertical integration suddenly a good thing? Arguably car companies know nothing about battery production and would be financially stupid to invest even greater amounts of capital into an already capital-intensive business.

The companies that build out the first 10 gigafactories will control half the new car market, and they will realize the most favorable returns on those investments.

Only if you assume that the guys who are good producing batteries will also be really good at building cars people want.

Will Tesla investors support this sort of rapid build out? We are talking about an investment of $25 to $40 billion. What investors will need to know with great confidence is that this investment will be worth locking in 25% to 40% of the global auto market.

Investing n battery production doesn't guarantee massive market share. Let's assume for a moment that you're correct and it does....With billions of investment in battery production Tesla would need to have billions more to build plants to produce cars to put the batteries in. The global passenger car production of the top 50 manufacturers is something over 60m cars a year. Assuming that you are right on >25% market share then Tesla will be producing ~15m cars per year. They might get 0.5m out of Fremont so they only need another 30 similar factories? Don't the Ter/Terra factory builders need Tera/Terra car factories also?

So how can investors profit? Simple, invest in those companies that are building our gigafactories. If Musk is able to lead shareholders down this path and build out 5 or more gigafactories, then it will be an unprecedented opportunity for investors to hold onto these shares, provided the share price does not get ridiculously high.

Risk that ROI drops through the floor due to a massively capital intensive business model.

There's a number of reasons why it doesn't make sense to be totally vertically integrated.....
 
Bonnie, you're right. This is not one person's story. This is our story. This is the story we are telling, and we are telling it together. I'm sorry if anyone finds off-putting my creative spelling of Terrafactory. It is curious why variations in spelling would engender so much difficulty. We all have different views of what the future holds for Tesla and what strategies would best advance that future. These are the differences we should discuss, and this is the diversity of perspective we should embrace. My aim with this thread is to give us a space to tell our stories of Tesla in imaginative ways. It is fitting that each of us will have our own peculiar ways of telling our stories. I know I have my own. Tell me yours. What will the EV industry look like in 40 years? How will we get there?

Oh stop. Bit over the top. You're not the professor and I'm not the student. I've been posting on this forum for awhile, so if you've paid attention, you know my story (and then some). Check the number of posts. <-----It's over there to the left, under my name.

I simply commented that the spelling of a large factory is not about how one person wants it spelled. Let's not get all flowery about it. Please.
 
I am not saying that vertical integration is at all necessary. If you like, you can decompose a vehicle into drivetrains and chassis. Currently, automakers predominantly make their own drivetrains. If the market is disrupted to the point that the internal combustion engine is no longer produced, what will happen to these automakers? The could simply carry on as chassis makers, but that would substantially gut their business. In any case, I am not concerned about needing to build out chassis manufacturing capacity as that is largely in place and not subject to the disruption in drivetrains.

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Oh stop. Bit over the top. You're not the professor and I'm not the student. I've been posting on this forum for awhile, so if you've paid attention, you know my story (and then some). Check the number of posts. <-----It's over there to the left, under my name.

I simply commented that the spelling of a large factory is not about how one person wants it spelled. Let's not get all flowery about it. Please.

Sorry about that. I guess the cumulative effect of so many complaining about my intentional spelling got to me. Moreover, no one asked me to change it. Rather they called out to moderators to change it. Talk about being treated like a school child. Robert was respectful enough to change it back when I expressed my desire to have it spelled that way.
 
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Sorry about that. I guess the cumulative effect of so many complaining about my intentional spelling got to me. Moreover, no one asked me to change it. Rather they called out to moderators to change it. Talk about be treated like a school child. Robert was respectful enough to change it back when I expressed my desire to have it spelled that way.

People called out to moderators to change it because only moderators are able to change the title of a thread (not obvious, I understand). No worries.
 
I am not saying that vertical integration is at all necessary.

Up-thread you have been postulating that automakers need to invest in Tera/Terra factories.....that's vertical integration.

If you like, you can decompose a vehicle into drivetrains and chassis.

Well, a couple of thousand different parts.

Currently, automakers predominantly make their own drivetrains.

On a general level I don't think that's true. I think currently most automakers assemble their drivetrains. (It's too late at night for me to look up a source.)
 
Nigel, thank you for taking an interest in this discussion. You make some fair points. Let's see if we can find some common ground and proceed from there.

First, I think we're are in agreement that automobiles are made up of many components derived from a complex supply chain. What we commonly call an automaker are those entities that assemble, brand and market final products to the consumer. Yet their are many more entities within the auto industry that contribute to the development and manufacture of vehicles. Those participants that sell components to automakers are commonly referred to as suppliers. Is this fair?

Second, Tesla investors and other EV enthusiasts generally anticipate that electric vehicles will eventually disrupt the auto industry, over time displacing vehicles with internal combustion engines. Would you agree? Or do you hold another view? If so, I would be curious to learn what your perspective is?

If we are on common thinking on both of these points, then we can take up the question of what does disruption of the auto industry mean in light of it being a complex supply chain? Does it mean for an extreme that the entire supply chain is disrupted or just certain components? So when you think about disruption what does it mean to you?

Also when you use the expression "Terra/Tera factory" what does that mean to you? Would you be just as comfortable using the term "gigafactory", or would that mean something else to you?

Regards, James
 
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The biggest disruption caused by EVs is not in the manufacturing supply chain, but in the fueling supply chain. There are billions of dollars of assets that would be made valueless if EVs came to dominate personal transport.

Much of the automotive supply chain would be unaffected. Take a look at a Model S: it has standard tires, windshield wipers, shock absorbers, and so forth. Sure, some parts will be made obsolete, and other parts will be added new. But these are shifts that happen constantly,

The biggest disrupter in the supply chain is, as you note, batteries. I think "gigafactory"is still the right term, because economies of scales will be fully exploited in the GWh range. A factory 100x larger than Tesla's gigafactory would employ 650,000 workers, which is unheard of and logistically stupid. So, although I understand your aspirational term, it's just not rooted in business logic or sound linguistics.
 
The biggest disruption caused by EVs is not in the manufacturing supply chain, but in the fueling supply chain. There are billions of dollars of assets that would be made valueless if EVs came to dominate personal transport.

Much of the automotive supply chain would be unaffected. Take a look at a Model S: it has standard tires, windshield wipers, shock absorbers, and so forth. Sure, some parts will be made obsolete, and other parts will be added new. But these are shifts that happen constantly,

The biggest disrupter in the supply chain is, as you note, batteries. I think "gigafactory"is still the right term, because economies of scales will be fully exploited in the GWh range. A factory 100x larger than Tesla's gigafactory would employ 650,000 workers, which is unheard of and logistically stupid. So, although I understand your aspirational term, it's just not rooted in business logic or sound linguistics.

Yes, I agree. The biggest disruption is to oil. Disruption to the auto supply chain is pretty much limited to the ICE drivetrain. Spark plug makers are in trouble but not the auto glass makers. Does anyone have some stats on how big the ICE drivetrain industries are? Could this be as much as one third of the entire auto industry? So in terms of the fraction of the total auto industry to be disrupted economically, this may be about a third of components.

But actually, I think displacing ICE can have a bigger impact on the final automakers than just the component costs involved. That is, switching drivetrains has bigger design and performance implications that say switching from cassette players to CD players. To build a truly compelling EV, I suspect you really must design a new model from the ground up. Automakers who are only trying to market compliance cars can get away with redesign shortcuts, but to make a truly competive car I doubt this will cut it. This is especially true as battery density is just beginning to make EVs practical. Consider how much effort Tesla has put into reducing the weight and air resistance of the Model S. This is critical to achieving a satisfying range, given the energy density of its current battery pack. But suppose that a battery pack with say 100 kWh and a weight of 200 kg were presently available to car designers. With this kind of density, a fantastic range would be available without having to go to lengths for a more energy efficient design. Unfortunately, that sort of energy density may not be available for another 10 to 20 years. In the meantime, if you want to make a serious EV, you're going to have to do some serious design work.

To make a serious investment in designing EVs, an automaker will do well to lock in a basic battery pack architecture and durable supply chain relationships to deliver it in quantity. So basically, if an automaker is going to sell 500k EVs a year, they need to develop their own gigafactory. This is not to say that they must own it completely or even take a small equity stake in a JV. What I mean is they will need to secure a relationship with prinicipals in the JV such that they have a reliable supply of battery packs at reasonable prices.

One only need to look to the relationship that Toyota has with Tesla to see how critical this is. Toyota needed commitment from Tesla for a much larger supply of battery packs for the RAV4. Tesla being battery constrained is in no position to supply Toyota in quantity. Basically, Tesla is able to make about $25k gross margin per battery pack when they sell a Model S. Selling packs to Toyota means losing the opportunity to sell a certain number of Tesla vehicles. To be worth supplying Toyota, Tesla would need to add the opportunity cost of missed auto sales to the cost of the battery pack. This would imply a gross mass margin of 50% or more on battery packs, but only a 25% margin on the Model S. So basically Toyota would need to be willing to pass on all of the margin to Tesla for the pack as if Tesla were to make the entire vehicle. Naturally, this would leave Toyota with almost no margin for itself. Consequently, as long as Tesla is battery constrained itself, there can be no mutually enriching supplier deal in quantity for Toyota. Either, Tesla suffers the cost of lost opportunity or Toyota gives practically all the profit to Tesla. If Toyota really wanted to make this work, I believe their best options are to take an equity position in a gigafactory JV with Tesla and others or to take an equity position in a gigafactory JV with others but excluding Tesla as a partner. As Tesla has opened its patents, Toyota may well be able to develop a gigafactory without Tesla. In any case, any case Toyota needs to secure its share of the output of a gigafactory if it intends to produce EVs in quantity. It would be foolhardy to invest billions into designing compelling EVs from the ground up without securing the supply of battery packs, and since this supply chain is not yet mature an aspiring EV maker may need to pony up capital of its own to do so. This is what Tesla is doing. Why should it be any easier for anyone else?

As for a terafactory all in one location, I do not think this would ever be economical. Rather, I see that about 20 gigafactories will suffice and from a logistic viewpoint it would make sense to distribute these all around the globe. I could see Tesla having 3 in North America, 2 in Europe, 4 in Asia, and 1 in South America, rolling one out year after year for the next ten years. This way local gigafactories can produce pack from local resources for local markets. How long will it make sense to ship cells from Japan to California and packs from California to China and paying steep import taxes to China? For now, it works, but it is clearly not the most economical path for the future. The Terrafactory is most surely not a terafactory, but is a distributed network of local gigafactories positioned in such a way as to minimize the environmental, logistical and economic costs of building a global fleet of EVs.
 
...Disruption to the auto supply chain is pretty much limited to the ICE drivetrain. Spark plug makers are in trouble but not the auto glass makers. Does anyone have some stats on how big the ICE drivetrain industries are? Could this be as much as one third of the entire auto industry? So in terms of the fraction of the total auto industry to be disrupted economically, this may be about a third of components...

I recall hearing a presentation where they said that the big auto makers basically divested themselves of proprietary manufacturing for everything _except_ their internal combustion engines thinking that this was the real core value of their respective companies. So, for instance, GM and Ford divisions are less likely to make any money selling parts to an EV company like Tesla. So an EV (with no gas engine) cutting into their market share would "cut right to the core" of what they value.

Parts suppliers (other than engines) generally aren't the big auto "assemblers" anymore. (A company like GM or Ford has become more "assembler" and less "manufacturer" over time.)
Recently list of global suppliers:
http://www.autonews.com/assets/PDF/CA89220617.PDF
 
I recall hearing a presentation where they said that the big auto makers basically divested themselves of proprietary manufacturing for everything _except_ their internal combustion engines thinking that this was the real core value of their respective companies. So, for instance, GM and Ford divisions are less likely to make any money selling parts to an EV company like Tesla. So an EV (with no gas engine) cutting into their market share would "cut right to the core" of what they value.

Parts suppliers (other than engines) generally aren't the big auto "assemblers" anymore. (A company like GM or Ford has become more "assembler" and less "manufacturer" over time.)
Recently list of global suppliers:
http://www.autonews.com/assets/PDF/CA89220617.PDF
Yeah, that's the impression I had, that engines were the core competency of the big automakers. If so, that would explain why they are so reluctant to develop serious EVs. I would not expect a cattle rancher to start producing tofu. They could buy soy beans and build out a processing plant to pump out veggie patties. Sure they could do it, but they won't because their core competency is in raising cattle. If you were to ask a cattleman why he doesn't make tofu, he'd probably just look at you like there was something wrong in your head.
 
Looking at the list of top suppliers, it's interesting to consider how much of their product line would be in peril if ICE were made obsolete. Robert Bosch for example would be reduced to car multimedia, electronics and steering systems. That would not likely keep them in first position. Perhaps they could build on their battery business, but I suspect this is mostly the lead acid variety. On the other hand, Magna International should be able to continue making chassis and interiors. Could they just as well become a full EV maker if they had a good EV drivetrain supplier? What exactly would make a traditional ICE maker a more suitable EV maker than Magna? A radical change in the supply chain could create opportunities for some supplies to become automakers. Why not?
 
What exactly would make a traditional ICE maker a more suitable EV maker than Magna? A radical change in the supply chain could create opportunities for some supplies to become automakers. Why not?
Incumbents have a lot of advantages, if they choose to use them. They have design teams that understand auto assembly; supply chains and the ability to integrate components from hundreds of suppliers into the assembly line; a broad retail network; and more than a little brand loyalty, or at least brand recognition. Even as tarnished as GM's reputation is, I think there are a lot of people out there who (a) don't know that their Caddy is a GM and (b) would trust "the devil they know" more than some new entrant.