Battery Replaced Under Warranty - 30+ miles below rated range

[aerodyne]

I did the Prius for my daughter. I don't really trust other folks to work on my cars.

I am sure someone out there can find a way to remanufacture packsTesla HV, and sell them as an exchange.

 

[Peter Lucas]

Thank you for this because it helped me calculate (I think) the capacity of the battery I received. I know displayed range and real range are never necessarily equivalent and always change depending on driving style, weather, AC use, heat use, weight, tires, etc.

That was never my argument. If your full charge range says 270 miles and you drive 100 miles and you use 50% of your battery and you look at your total energy used, it should tell you your current capacity. I don't know if your 90D was new when you bought it and what the range said when it was new.

In early 2016, when I bought my Model S, 90D, these cars in the showrooms all displayed a full charge range of about 280 miles. I bought an "inventory" car (dealer demo) with 17,000 miles on it. It was manufactured in Feb. of 2016. It also showed a full charge range of 280 miles. Immediately I noticed that my (extrapolated) full charge range, in real life, was around 200 miles. If I tried really hard, in ideal conditions, I could get 220 miles. I did numerous calculations of useable battery capacity (using the cars display of kwh used). All calculations resulted in a battery capacity of 72 to 73 kwh. For a "90 kwh" battery. All the while, the cars display of full charge Rated Range remained (remains) around 275 miles.

 

[rsg123]

My 2014 Model S60 battery failed two weeks ago. I received it back today and I looked like the range was odd. I believe the S60 was rated at 208 and when I got home I decided to charge it to 100% to check the range and at 100% it is 173.

They told me I was getting a refurbished pack. I checked the sticker and it reads:

60kWh, 350VDC
part number: 1120019-01-B

Any ideas? This is lower than I was getting before it was replaced.

just curious—what was your mileage at the time of failure?

 

[Peter Lucas]

I did some math and I need some help to check my math. Been awhile.

So when my wife came home from Tesla with the new battery, the capacity went from 88% to 62%. This is a 26% decrease. She started with 157 miles on the dash at 88% and ended with 109 miles on the dash at 62%. She drove 48.8 miles. 157 miles - 109 miles is 48 miles. So that is consistent. In that time she used 12.1kWh of total energy.

A 60kWh battery losing 26% of its capacity should use 15.6kWh of energy, not 12.1kWh. A 46.5kWh battery losing 26% of its capacity would use 12.1kWh of total energy.

When I charged to 100% that night, I did the math again.

At 100% the dash read 173 miles. I drove 20.6 miles and the dash read 88% at 153 miles. Again the dash readout is consistent.

Over the distance of 20.6 miles the car used 5.4kWh of total energy which is consistent for a 45kWh battery not a 60kWh battery. For a 60kWh battery to use 12% of its capacity, it would need to use 7.2kWh of total energy.

I don't expect a 60kWh battery to have 60kWh available although I've heard Tesla say it does, BUT to have 45 to 46kWh capacity in a replacement battery is beyond unacceptable. It is ridiculous that they replaced my defective pack with this pack that they say is fine.

Any math help with this is appreciated.

Your math appears correct. The only thing to add is that these calculations will be more reliable when you do longer trips, using a larger portion of the battery capacity.
You are correct that a nominal 60 kwh battery will not have 60 kwh of useable energy. For battery longevity and preservation, the battery is never charged to its maximum voltage. And is never allowed to fully discharge. Displayed rated range should be based on the useable capacity. Not the nominal capacity. While the exact number is debatable, the useable battery capacity should be somewhere around 90% of the nominal capacity.

 

[cookie99]

This is a rather interesting thread. A month ago, I had to replace the battery pack on my son's 2006 Toyota hybrid. Yes, I know it is a hybrid and not a direct comparison, however, my point is that the Toyota dealer wanted a ton of money to replace it and my son would have to wait 2 weeks for them to get one. On top of that, it would be warranted for only 1 year. So, I called a 3rd party company with high ratings that comes out to the house and replace the battery. Within 2 hours of calling on a Sunday morning, they came out and replaced the battery. It cost 1/3 the price of the Toyota quote, and the warranty is unlimited mileage for as long as he owns the car. Imagine that.
I'm not suggesting a 3rd party company can help you. The thread just reminded me of a recent experience with his hybrid.

I did the Prius for my daughter. I don't really trust other folks to work on my cars.

I am sure someone out there can find a way to remanufacture packsTesla HV, and sell them as an exchange.

i too replaced a dying hybrid prius battery myself when the infamous hybrid issue warning came on the screen. imagine my surprise when only 2 of the cells were low voltage when that happened, it costed me $20 per cell on ebay, so $40 fixed my HV battery. I imagine even a 3rd party would charge me $500-$1000 for this service. its been running fine for 4 years, improved mileage and everything. It was so painless I considered doing this for other people and can probably make a boatload of money doing it as a side-gig.

that being said, i can't imagine the tesla battery pack to be so easy to work with

 

[aerodyne]

i too replaced a dying hybrid prius battery myself when the infamous hybrid issue warning came on the screen. imagine my surprise when only 2 of the cells were low voltage when that happened, it costed me $20 per cell on ebay, so $40 fixed my HV battery. I imagine even a 3rd party would charge me $500-$1000 for this service. its been running fine for 4 years, improved mileage and everything. It was so painless I considered doing this for other people and can probably make a boatload of money doing it as a side-gig.

that being said, i can't imagine the tesla battery pack to be so easy to work with

In my case, the best cell was like 30% of capacity, most were 80-90% degraded. Car got the Triangle of Death a few times, but never stranded me.

The Tesla pack just due to its weight will not be a practical DYI thing in you garage. However, we need to support local shops that are willing to try the work.

 

[sorka]

The math doesn’t matter. The only thing relevant here is the new battery has significantly less capacity and range than the battery they replaced. You should start thinking about how you’re going to prove that.

Really patting myself on the back now for years of $5 / month to Teslafi

 

[sorka]

They may still try to argue driving style is affecting the range. That is why I suggest to get a reader. Of course, they can run diagnostics and see the same thing off of the Canbus.

But they can't argue driving style effects "rated" range which is strictly based on the BMS's report of kWh capacity.

 

[aerodyne]

^^^This!

 

[Peter Lucas]

But they can't argue driving style effects "rated" range which is strictly based on the BMS's report of kWh capacity.

In my car, early 2016 S 90D, the full charge rated range is little changed from new. But the battery capacity is significantly degraded (72 kwh). So the displayed Rated Range is concealing battery degradation. The displayed rated range is not strictly based on the battery capacity.

 

[aerodyne]

In my car, early 2016 S 90D, the full charge rated range is little changed from new. But the battery capacity is significantly degraded (72 kwh). So the displayed Rated Range is concealing battery degradation. The displayed rated range is not strictly based on the battery capacity.

Interesting... I have just noticed the Nominal pack and Usable pack KwH data from the Canbus do not support my RR in that it implies a higher degradation that the RR suggests (7% vs 4%).

It has been said that the RR is a function of the Nominal pack, not the Usable pack capacity. I am still trying to figure this all out.

I still believe that having the Canbus data, should it show severe degradation, could enable a warranty replacement, esp if such degradation was restricting charge rates and power output.

 

[sorka]

In my car, early 2016 S 90D, the full charge rated range is little changed from new. But the battery capacity is significantly degraded (72 kwh). So the displayed Rated Range is concealing battery degradation. The displayed rated range is not strictly based on the battery capacity.

My battery capacity as reported by the BMS has always exactly matched my rated range. I've never seen what you're saying reported by anyone else.

My current capacity is 74kWH on my P85D with 239 miles of rated range.

I wonder if you have a V1 90 battery and they fudged the software just for that battery to keep the outrage down?

 

[aerodyne]

My battery capacity as reported by the BMS has always exactly matched my rated range. I've never seen what you're saying reported by anyone else.

My current capacity is 74kWH on my P85D with 239 miles of rated range.

I wonder if you have a V1 90 battery and they fudged the software just for that battery to keep the outrage down?

I am starting to wonder if @Lucas is right and something funny is going on...here is my data today for S85D at 65 deg F at 55% SoC:

Rated Full Range:
Tesla App: 258
Teslafi: 259
Canbus via SMT: 260

Rated Range Remaining:
Tesla App: 142
Teslafi: 142.3
Canbus via SMT: 142

Pack Capacity, full/usable
New: 81.5/77.5
With 4% degradation: 78.25/74.25
Per canbus: 75.5/71.5

In order to get 260 miles on the Canbus numbers pack numbers I have to consume 290 to 275 Wh/mi. Way below the EPA rating of 300 Wh/mi.

 

[Peter Lucas]

....I still believe that having the Canbus data, should it show severe degradation, could enable a warranty replacement, esp if such degradation was restricting charge rates and power output.

Warranty replacement for significant battery degradation is what many of us would expect. It is what I expected. But my recent (about two months ago) conversation with a Tesla service rep included the statement that: "We do not replace batteries for any amount of degradation. Only if you car gives you a battery fault message." And considering that the cars display of rated range may not include battery degradation (mine doesn't), it is likely that many owners have significantly degraded batteries and don't know it. To figure it out you have to look closely at your kwh used and battery percent change.

 

[SSedan]

So they could just turn off the warning codes and never have to replace a pack........

 

[Qbenjamin]

@robertmanning : FWIW, I got rid of my 2014 S60 for a similar battery degradation issue. The 100% when I purchased it was around 205, about 8 months later, it was down to around 175-180. When I mentioned this to my local service center, they ran their diagnostics and said that the numbers were within normal range for that model. Insane that the battery pack dropped about 15% in such a short amount of time. Sold the car in early 2018.

 

[aerodyne]

Warranty replacement for significant battery degradation is what many of us would expect. It is what I expected. But my recent (about two months ago) conversation with a Tesla service rep included the statement that: "We do not replace batteries for any amount of degradation. Only if you car gives you a battery fault message." And considering that the cars display of rated range may not include battery degradation (mine doesn't), it is likely that many owners have significantly degraded batteries and don't know it. To figure it out you have to look closely at your kwh used and battery percent change.

Tesla has said clearly that the warranty does not include HV pack degradation. But I agree if I saw more than 30%, I would be demanding a replacement. The only thing we can hope for, is that such a severe degradation causes a battery or charge fault.

If it does not, I would be included to drive it around hard until it does.

I looked closely at my miles and KwH required to use half the battery, and did not see the degradation that the Canbus data shows. It seems that RR is based on full pack, and the algorithm adjusts to usable pack as you get below 20%. Since I have never been that low, I really don't know what is going on.

I need to do more research, but I think Tesla is pulling a fast one on our older cars. Someone else might be getting the Cybertruck I reserved...

 

[Peter Lucas]

My battery capacity as reported by the BMS has always exactly matched my rated range. I've never seen what you're saying reported by anyone else.

My current capacity is 74kWH on my P85D with 239 miles of rated range.

I wonder if you have a V1 90 battery and they fudged the software just for that battery to keep the outrage down?

Manipulating the software to display an inaccurate full charge rated range seems very possible. (How could one know?).
How do I know if I have a v1 90 battery? (early 2016 S 90D)

 

[thesnooch]

@robertmanning : FWIW, I got rid of my 2014 S60 for a similar battery degradation issue. The 100% when I purchased it was around 205, about 8 months later, it was down to around 175-180. When I mentioned this to my local service center, they ran their diagnostics and said that the numbers were within normal range for that model. Insane that the battery pack dropped about 15% in such a short amount of time. Sold the car in early 2018.

Mind pming me your vin #? Red S60 by any chance?

 

[Qbenjamin]

Mind pming me your vin #? Red S60 by any chance?

I don't have it anymore, but I sold it to a friend who ended up totaling it about 6 months later (MSM S60). The battery was destroyed, he ran over something metal in the road and it cut into the battery pack.

@thesnooch : Nvm, I found the bill of sale - 5YJSA1S19EFP62141