Autopilot lane keeping still not available over 6 months after delivery

[Auzie]

I think your whole post misses the point entirely.

Possible, I was just stating my perception of what comes across to me from your words.

My perception can be different to your perception or intentions, so it might help to just quote your words back, for clarity.

I explicitly said I expect no changes on the matter to come from my post. I'm also not backpedaling out of anything, just clarifying, and I've made no mistake about it other than not realizing people here, like yourself, would blow it out of proportion. If in fact Tesla hasn't released the update this year (as has been predicted elsewhere and in this thread) then in no universe is that the promised "several months" from last October and I'm pretty sure someone will beat me to the legal portion of this whole thing. We're basically talking about millions of dollars in sales based on a lie at that point, and there are people out there with a lot less patience than I.

Essentially, if the car doesn't do a main thing I purchased it for (autopilot for my thousands of miles of summer driving), then, as mentioned previously, I'll most likely consider legal recourse. This is definitely something in the realm of a class action case if pursued, and I'm not against that if needed to press this further at that time. (Edit: Stop reading so much into this. This is an absolute last resort if Tesla becomes unreasonable. I believe they are a reasonable company and that legal action will not be needed. However I'm not going to waive my right to pursue it, here or elsewhere. See more below)

Perhaps we have differing perceptions of many issues including being respectful.

As far as being friendly, I've been more than friendly by allowing as much time to pass as it has before saying anything to anyone at Tesla about this at all. Now I'm just being professional and respectful... friendly perhaps, but to the point.

I would consider statements below to be less than respectful or friendly, but I agree to disagree on the criteria of what is respectful.

We're basically talking about millions of dollars in sales based on a lie at that point, and there are people out there with a lot less patience than I.

Others have done it and are selling it, so stop with that nonsense.

Chew on that a bit before making it sound minuscule.

Perhaps the main point of this thread is summarized in quotes below

As for any damages related to this, keep in mind I would not have bought the entire $134k vehicle had it not been for autopilot. Chew on that a bit before making it sound minuscule.

I feel cheated by Tesla on this, plain and simple. The more time goes on, the more cheated I feel. The more cheated I feel, the more I'll have to push the issue.

I understand that you and some others may feel cheated, and I am sorry if you feel that I tried to minimize your frustration by putting a $ cap on your claim. My legal cap comment referred to my understanding of the $ limitations of your claim, it was not meant to dismiss or undermine your feeling cheated.

Obviously there is likely to be a lot of disagreement on the validity of your claim and the value of the cap. My expectation is that we can all keep disagreeing on many issues whilst being respectful.

It might be helpful to clarify what exact outcome you wish to achieve by pushing the issue.

 

[yak-55]

Really? So we're now into the realm of calling Tesla's actions "fraud"?

While I appreciate and understand people's frustration regarding this issue, calling Musk's or Tesla's actions "fraud" is, in my opinion, way over the line. I just wish there was more accountability on the internet for throwing around these damaging terms, especially when it is done in such a cavalier way as this. I know of a few cases when people were pursued legally for making serious unfounded allegations. I just wish it would happen more often.

I think the unfounded allegation at hand is the one circa 10/2014 that "updates to automatically drive Model S on the open road and in rush hour traffic" will be available in "a few months."

 

[stopcrazypp]

I think the unfounded allegation at hand is the one circa 10/2014 that "updates to automatically drive Model S on the open road and in rush hour traffic" will be available in "a few months."

I take it you are talking about this page?
It says: "It will take several months for all Autopilot features to be completed and uploaded to the cars."
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/dual-motor-model-s-and-autopilot

"Several" typically refers to more than "a few". "A few" I think typically refers to 3-5. Several typically refers to 5-8 (although I should note it can refer to anything less than a year).

 

[wk057]

It might be helpful to clarify what exact outcome you wish to achieve by pushing the issue.

I already did this, and pulled that post into the first post for added clarity.... but I'll copy it here again since others must be missing it still.

Like I said... an official progress update would be nice. A statement that warranty on autopilot hardware wouldn't start counting down until after 7.x was released would be more than enough for me, personally. Offer to refund/disable autopilot cost until it is available (as mentioned above). Something. Anything that proves that us early buyers weren't just victims of a marketing ploy and I would be happy. I'm sure most others would as well.

 

[Andyw2100]

I take it you are talking about this page?
It says: "It will take several months for all Autopilot features to be completed and uploaded to the cars."
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/dual-motor-model-s-and-autopilot

I hadn't read that blog post in quite a while.

The people over in the 691 HP asterisk thread would probably be interested in this line from that blog post:

--
The P85D combines the performance of the P85 rear motor with an additional 50 percent of torque available from our new front drive unit.
--

If I understand the arguments correctly, (and it's entirely possible I don't) the people arguing that Tesla didn't really do anything wrong in the way they advertised the 691 HP argue that Tesla never claimed the car could make 691 HP, but rather that the drive units, independently, could do so, and there was no reason to believe that the drive units could each put out max power simultaneously. The line above would seem to be evidence that Tesla said they would--"an additional 50 percent of torque available."

Am I missing something?

 

[stopcrazypp]

If I understand the arguments correctly, (and it's entirely possible I don't) the people arguing that Tesla didn't really do anything wrong in the way they advertised the 691 HP argue that Tesla never claimed the car could make 691 HP, but rather that the drive units, independently, could do so, and there was no reason to believe that the drive units could each put out max power simultaneously. The line above would seem to be evidence that Tesla said they would--"an additional 50 percent of torque available."

Am I missing something?

Torque and horsepower are two completely different things. P85 was advertised at 443 lb-ft, 50% more is 665 lb-ft.

The P85D has been dynoed at 864 lb-ft on its first dyno (advertised at 687 lb-ft). So on torque it has more than advertised and way more that 50% more than the advertised torque on the P85 (close to twice as much).

 

[Andyw2100]

Torque and horsepower are two completely different things. P85 was advertised at 443 lb-ft, 50% more is 665 lb-ft.

The P85D has been dynoed at 864 lb-ft on its first dyno (advertised at 687 lb-ft). So on torque it has more than advertised and way more that 50% more than the advertised torque on the P85 (close to twice as much).

OK. Well, then that's what I was missing!

Thanks.

 

[wk057]

He's a big boy and should be able to handle himself. When you bring up 'legal recourse', even if you're trying to back-pedal by saying you weren't actually threatening that, it's going to get some strong opinions. And I don't see anything that even comes close to some of the statements he's made in the past towards others, when he disagreed with what they had to say.

Not backpedaling. I amended the first post with clarification but my stance has not changed.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

What it says now is not the issue. I'd like to see exactly how obviously it said whatever it said back when I ordered. I tried to use The Internet Archive Wayback Machine to check, and wasn't able to. (I ordered on the morning of October 24th, the day Tesla first offered 19 inch wheels and grey Next Gen seats on the P85D.) I'm willing to bet no matter how much you want to belittle me, saying things like I'd have to be ordering with my eyes closed to miss it, whatever disclaimer I missed was not nearly as obvious as it is now.

First of all, I wasn't "belittling" you. While I was responding to your post, my use of the word "you" was more of a general thing. In hindsight I should have used the word "one" instead of "you". My apologies for that. I wasn't trying to single you out by any means.

I remember referring to the web site after Musk's announcement in October 2014. I remember seeing, quite distinctly, that there was an asterisked footnote on the order page under Tech Package where it said that Autopilot features will be enabled via future download. The Autopilot page itself also stated, in the footnotes, that the features would be enabled over successive software updates over several months.

There was no confusion in my mind, none, that this was going to take a while. But then again, I actually read everything.

 

[Chrisizzle]

I only read the first few posts so, I may have missed something in the last 15 pages.

I totally understand why you guys are upset. I assumed all new models came with autopilot.

I bought a Demo Model S 85 immediately after autopilot was announced in October. I saved $27,000 Canadian because Tesla deemed it 'obsolete' without sensors for autopilot. After almost a year, you really don't have anything more than I do.

Assuming people take 3-year leases or 5-year financing, owners are 20% - 33% through the life of the car and haven't gotten what they paid for.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

I would also like to point out that this thread is sounding almost identical to the thread about the 90 kW limited A packs. A lot of parsing of words from the CEO, and what was said on the web site, in an attempt to show that Tesla promised something that it didn't deliver to a specific group of customers. It's just an observation, that's all.

 

[Andyw2100]

First of all, I wasn't "belittling" you. While I was responding to your post, my use of the word "you" was more of a general thing. In hindsight I should have used the word "one" instead of "you". My apologies for that. I wasn't trying to single you out by any means.

I remember referring to the web site after Musk's announcement in October 2014. I remember seeing, quite distinctly, that there was an asterisked footnote on the order page under Tech Package where it said that Autopilot features will be enabled via future download. The Autopilot page itself also stated, in the footnotes, that the features would be enabled over successive software updates over several months.

There was no confusion in my mind, none, that this was going to take a while. But then again, I actually read everything.

Thanks, I appreciate that.

It's possible I saw the footnote, but didn't completely understand it. As someone really new to Tesla, I was processing so much information that what I saw in the video easily could have overshadowed something I read but didn't fully understand.

In any case, this isn't much of an issue for me, since we will eventually get the feature. But I do understand why not having it yet is an issue for others.

 

[dhanson865]

Has anyone compared the CPO page for an autopilot car to the new car pages?

I wonder if they qualify or downplay the autopilot features any there.

Tesla CPO Consolidator will take you to the consolidator and then you can filter for an autopilot enabled car

Autopilot features are made available through progressive software updates. Lane keeping and self-parking updates will be available soon.

They make you look for the disclaimer though since the features are high on the list and there is no asterisk and it's gray text on a white background (both the features and the disclaimer are low contrast text).

 

[Andyw2100]

I totally understand why you guys are upset. I assumed all new models came with autopilot.

I bought a Demo Model S 85 immediately after autopilot was announced in October. I saved $27,000 Canadian because Tesla deemed it 'obsolete' without sensors for autopilot. After almost a year, you really don't have anything more than I do.

I've been arguing mainly on the "Tesla has wronged us" side of this, and while I appreciate your support, your statement that after a year those of us with Autopilot cars really don't have anything more than you do (with your non-auto pilot car) really isn't true. Tesla has rolled out several of the autopilot features, including TACC, lane departure warning, speed assist, blind spot detection, etc. Some of these we've had for quite a while, and some of them work quite well.

I'm pretty upset with Tesla myself right now, but let's be fair with our criticism. Those of us with autopilot capable cars have definitely received some autopilot value that those without autopilot capable cars have not. To say otherwise just isn't accurate.

 

[NoMoGas]

Ever occur to anyone that Tesla is waiting for LEGISLATION to make this legal?

 

[donv]

Why would they need that? It hasn't stopped Mercedes, Infiniti, Acura, VW...

Ever occur to anyone that Tesla is waiting for LEGISLATION to make this legal?

 

[schonelucht]

I would also like to point out that this thread is sounding almost identical to the thread about the 90 kW limited A packs. A lot of parsing of words from the CEO, and what was said on the web site, in an attempt to show that Tesla promised something that it didn't deliver to a specific group of customers. It's just an observation, that's all.

It's also exactly the same as the infamous 'notes on supercharging' thread, or the thread of P85D efficiency thread, or the thread on ranger visits/extended warranty, or or or... Tesla just isn't good at communicating exactly what it is selling right now and what it is selling as an IOU. They may be on a mission to change the world which may excuse some of it but if their intention is to actually meet that goal they will have to change their ways in this at some point in the future.

 

[dsm363]

Ever occur to anyone that Tesla is waiting for LEGISLATION to make this legal?

I think you are thinking about fully autonomous driving which is not what Tesla is going to release yet. The driver is still legally responsible for what that car does.

 

[ecarfan]

And even in a fully autonomous car like the two Google models the person sitting in the front left seat is legally responsible for the car as far as I know.

 

[Majerus]

Ever occur to anyone that Tesla is waiting for LEGISLATION to make this legal?

It was asked at the share holders conference, Elons statement was no. Also should point out others vehicles have similar features to what autopilot is in theory capable of.