Ability to edit old posts expires

[spaceballs]

Yeah I just noticed I can't edit my spelling mistakes in older posts now.

*THIS IS REALLY SUPER ANNOYING*

I expected a better solution that you guys could figure this out without hindering your normal users. A few even have posted here about other good solutions...

I donate yearly to forums I post on, but I will likely skip this one due to this regression of user freedoms.

 

[dirkhh]

How about this: after the timeout you revert back to newby mode. You can add to the post, but not edit the text itself or delete it.
This way people could make updates but the abuse would be prevented.
Could this be a workable compromise?

 

[Rheazombi]

How about this: after the timeout you revert back to newby mode. You can add to the post, but not edit the text itself or delete it.
This way people could make updates but the abuse would be prevented.
Could this be a workable compromise?

Still lame IMO. I think one's ability to edit a post should just be limited to their post count.

 

[bonnie]

I'm fine with the edit limitations. I can think of a number of times that someone with a high post count, for whatever reason, went back and caused a great deal of damage to ongoing conversations, etc. It doesn't appear to be because of only one or two people.

I can understand the frustration of those who maintain a wiki-like thread. The forum administration seems to have given you a way to address that.

But c'mon ... going back later to correct typos? If it's an active thread, your post is buried after 24 hours and no one is likely reading it. If it's not active, same. Personally, I either correct it on the spot or move on. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a post I edited more than 24 hours after the fact. When I've seen that editing in the past, it hasn't been for typos or grammatical errors (if you get my drift). What if someone has already quoted your post? Want the rights to edit that, too?

If I REALLY wanted to correct something in the thread (perhaps because of erroneous info) and no longer could edit, I'd 1) quote the offending post and correct it with the text underneath, and then 2) ask a moderator to delete the offending post. That way there is continuity in the thread (old words with correction).

My philosophy is there are problems and annoyances in life .. this definitely would fall onto an annoyance list & not a problem list. This is a car forum.

 

[FlasherZ]

I'm fine with the edit limitations. I can think of a number of times that someone with a high post count, for whatever reason, went back and caused a great deal of damage to ongoing conversations, etc. It doesn't appear to be because of only one or two people.

Bonnie, while your suggestions are good for 99% of the content we find on this forum, it still doesn't solve the challenge that we have with moderated information posts like my wiring Q&A. You should not make it a wiki, because then it is subject to whim (imagine someone modifying the wiki to say it was perfectly fine to cut the ends off an extension cord and put 50-amp ends on it, because his brother used it for an RV once). At the same time, correcting things far down in the thread would require someone to read through tens of pages.

I haven't heard a definitive answer from Doug or the other mods yet - how can I handle this situation? Can I report the post and the mod will make the changes?

I don't know what capabilities vBulletin has; I'd be fine with something like Facebook, where you can see the edit history of a post that is edited post-facto.

 

[bonnie]

Have you thought about making it a blog? Link to it from the thread (or from your signature, like you're already doing).

(I just checked - I can still edit my blog entries & I'm well past the 24 hour mark.)

 

[eco5280]

B If it's an active thread, your post is buried after 24 hours and no one is likely reading it. If it's not active, same. Personally, I either correct it on the spot or move on. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a post I edited more than 24 hours after the fact. When I've seen that editing in the past, it hasn't been for typos or grammatical errors (if you get my drift). What if someone has already quoted your post? Want the rights to edit that, too?

I disagree wholeheartedly. Often people read the first post and reply. They don't go through 24 pages of responses. Being able to edit the first post to say PROBLEM SOLVED! or I WAS WRONG, HERE'S THE RIGHT ANSWER is convenient and saves lots of extraneous posts and confusion. Having to ask a mod? Seriously? Are we children raising our hands to go to the bathroom? It's a car forum - you're 100% right - so perhaps the mods need to take it less seriously and unless we're talking about hate speech or violence just let things go a bit more? It's got to be the strictest forum I'm on. And I list 124 forums in my bookmarks as I count right now.

this definitely would fall onto an annoyance list & not a problem list. This is a car forum.

Your opinion differs from mine -and your viewpoint limits my freedom and powers. My viewpoint doesn't limit any of your freedoms.

 

[bonnie]

Your opinion differs from mine -and your viewpoint limits my freedom and powers. My viewpoint doesn't limit any of your freedoms.

Guess we have a different view of what 'our freedom' and 'our powers' really means in the context of life. And your viewpoint on this has, at times, resulted in some posters creating a great deal of work for a group of volunteer moderators and overall disruption to a forum.

 

[FlasherZ]

Have you thought about making it a blog? Link to it from the thread (or from your signature, like you're already doing).

I have considered a number of things -- taking it off site, making it a blog, etc., but those would only serve to push its location even further away. As evidenced by the number of questions that are covered by the FAQ but are asked by forum participants in the Model S charging forum, it's either not being searched, or it's not being found. Every time someone posts a question, I have to reply and point at the sticky topic in the charging forum. And the text in my signature is way too small to gain anyone's attention - I asked kindly to make it larger but was declined because of the need to remain consistent.

If someone searches the forum, does a blog post come up? Will people click on a blog post after searching, or are they already programmed to ignore it because it seems like something that is more personal and less informative?

We're also going to see a lot more of this when the X comes out and the software functionality between them is a good overlap. People are going to post in the X charging section the same questions as the S charging section, the same questions that get asked in the overall charging section. They'll ask the same questions of the X UI as the S UI, and the information will be scattered.

My preference is a master sticky post that I can manage/edit, with sticky topics in each forum (S Charging, X Charging) that point to it. That way, we solve for two cases -- when someone searches they get a forum post, and when someone goes looking for the "sticky" topics (answering the question "where to start?") in the S or X forums, they get pointed in the right direction. I'll do what I have to in order to get a moderator's attention to get something edited (like the links to Tesla's installation guides, which have changed about 4 times already), but I'd like to think I have enough history here to be considered trusted enough to edit my guide.

 

[eco5280]

Guess we have a different view of what 'our freedom' and 'our powers' really means in the context of life. And your viewpoint on this has, at times, resulted in some posters creating a great deal of work for a group of volunteer moderators and overall disruption to a forum.

How many times? 5? 10? 500? There are nearly a million posts on this forum. If there were 500 instances where someone editing a post created "a great deal of work" for mods that's still 00.05% of posts causing a problem, resulting in the limiting of our abilities and inconveniencing 23,000 members. We both know it's far fewer than 500 instances. And probably not that big a deal really that the mods had to spend a lot of time on it?

 

[bonnie]

How many times? 5? 10? 500? There are nearly a million posts on this forum. If there were 500 instances where someone editing a post created "a great deal of work" for mods that's still 00.05% of posts causing a problem, resulting in the limiting of our abilities and inconveniencing 23,000 members. We both know it's far fewer than 500 instances. And probably not that big a deal really that the mods had to spend a lot of time on it?

Sooooo ... your argument is based on the percentage you think it's actually happened vs. ALL the forum members (most who are not active and only a few who would go back to edit)?

I see what you did there.



- - - Updated - - -

I have considered a number of things -- taking it off site, making it a blog, etc., but those would only serve to push its location even further away. As evidenced by the number of questions that are covered by the FAQ but are asked by forum participants in the Model S charging forum, it's either not being searched, or it's not being found. Every time someone posts a question, I have to reply and point at the sticky topic in the charging forum. And the text in my signature is way too small to gain anyone's attention - I asked kindly to make it larger but was declined because of the need to remain consistent.

If someone searches the forum, does a blog post come up? Will people click on a blog post after searching, or are they already programmed to ignore it because it seems like something that is more personal and less informative?

We're also going to see a lot more of this when the X comes out and the software functionality between them is a good overlap. People are going to post in the X charging section the same questions as the S charging section, the same questions that get asked in the overall charging section. They'll ask the same questions of the X UI as the S UI, and the information will be scattered.

My preference is a master sticky post that I can manage/edit, with sticky topics in each forum (S Charging, X Charging) that point to it. That way, we solve for two cases -- when someone searches they get a forum post, and when someone goes looking for the "sticky" topics (answering the question "where to start?") in the S or X forums, they get pointed in the right direction. I'll do what I have to in order to get a moderator's attention to get something edited (like the links to Tesla's installation guides, which have changed about 4 times already), but I'd like to think I have enough history here to be considered trusted enough to edit my guide.

I wish I had a good suggestion for your frustration here - no, blog posts won't show up on a search. If someone has subscribed, then they get notified anytime it changes. It is one more click away, but as you point out, you're already having to direct people there.

You touch on a bigger issue - larger forum crowds needing education with the Model X release (and then Model 3). The forum powers-that-be might want to consider an 'Education' subforum, for home charging, use of adapters, planning trips, etc. Then blog posts from SMEs could go in there, with authors of the blog updating as appropriate.

 

[FlasherZ]

I wish I had a good suggestion for your frustration here - no, blog posts won't show up on a search. If someone has subscribed, then they get notified anytime it changes. It is one more click away, but as you point out, you're already having to direct people there.

You touch on a bigger issue - larger forum crowds needing education with the Model X release (and then Model 3). The forum powers-that-be might want to consider an 'Education' subforum, for home charging, use of adapters, planning trips, etc. Then blog posts from SMEs could go in there, with authors of the blog updating as appropriate.

I just get the sense that there is more conservatism on what we could do here. I made the pitch to create a "sticky pointer" at the top of the Model S charging forum, but it was feared that having such a pointer would "clutter" things... yet I continue to answer questions *CONSTANTLY* that are covered by the FAQ. I asked for some options - some help - but was ignored.

I assume that moderators can see the edit history on a post... that's pretty typical and if I recall correctly, my time spent as a moderator on other forums gave me that ability. So if someone abuses that, then call them out; revert it to the original text; and put them in a class that doesn't allow for modification.

Punishing those who rely upon the functionality just because others have abused it seems like... forcing all car manufacturers to sell through dealers because some manufacturers went out of business without protection for the consumer in the past.

 

[HankLloydRight]

How many times? 5? 10? 500? There are nearly a million posts on this forum. If there were 500 instances where someone editing a post created "a great deal of work" for mods that's still 00.05% of posts causing a problem, resulting in the limiting of our abilities and inconveniencing 23,000 members. We both know it's far fewer than 500 instances. And probably not that big a deal really that the mods had to spend a lot of time on it?

Sooooo ... your argument is based on the percentage you think it's actually happened vs. ALL the forum members (most who are not active and only a few who would go back to edit)?

I see what you did there.

No, he does have a valid point. The "no edit" policy was clearly a knee-jerk reaction to one user who went back and deleted or edit most of his posts in one thread. Before that, it was a relatively uncommon problem. This new policy, instead of punishing the one user that triggered the new policy, you're punishing thousands of user rule-abiding users across the entire forum/site. Wikis and blog posts is the solution? I don't think so -- each has their own set of problems outlined above.

As I previously suggested in this thread, it's trivial to create a "Restricted" users area, and sanction only those people who break the rules to prevent them (and only them) from deleting or editing their posts. Leaving all the other users the free and easy access we all are begging for.

Coming up with other, far inferior solutions, or asking mods to edit posts, or just dismissing it by saying "eh, that feature is not that important anyway after 24 hours" is not progress.

If there are many (any) more of these draconian policies put in place, it's not hard for people to start up their own Tesla forums that allow such normal forum activity, and have a mass-exodus, leaving TMC wondering what happened. It's happened many times before when forums became too restrictive or reactionary, and I'm sure it will happen again.

Before trying to justify an ill-conceived policy with weak arguments, maybe listen to the masses of users and what they want -- especially when there are better solutions to the problems then just disabling a significant feature that seemingly everyone but the mods want re-enabled.

 

[bonnie]

But it's not 'the masses of users'. It's a small group who want this changed. You say to put people who cause problems into a restricted group, but the damage is already done at that point. It's people who are angry or (my theory only) had a few too many late at night and go on a tangent that is outside their normal behavior pattern. Completely unpredictable. (And no, not just one user. One user was the proverbial straw on the camel's back. There are many, many more.)

In any case, I handed in my moderator badge & I don't have any influence on policy with site owners. Other than I'm a regular forum member who has no issue with this policy.

 

[wk057]

I believe being able to append a post past 24 hours would be a reasonable compromise. (not sure how difficult this is on the back end, although I'm sure I could code something if it were me)

Aside from that, can posters with a proven track record/reputation/etc potential petition to be placed in a group where editing past 24 hours is possible? (should definitely be possible with existing setup)

 

[HankLloydRight]

But it's not 'the masses of users'. It's a small group who want this changed.

It's the users who want/need this feature who are the most vocal, yes.. but shall we put this up for a poll: "Would you want the 'edit post' feature re-enabled?" I think there would be very few, if any who would say "no, please keep those freedoms away from all of us potential troublemakers". It's like asking "Do you want more or less freedoms?". Who is going to vote for "less"?

You say to put people who cause problems into a restricted group, but the damage is already done at that point.

Yes, on a case-by-case basis, that kind of "damage" is only one thread at a time, when an unfortunate event happens. Which is what, maybe once a month? Once every three months that the mods need to intervene? OTOH, restricting the ability to edit posts which affects many, many users every single day is also "damage." I'd say that that "damage" is much more severe and frequent than having to clean up one messy thread every few months. And yes, disabling this feature is causing damage to the goodwill that most users have towards this site. And that goodwill is not infinite.

It's people who are angry or (my theory only) had a few too many late at night and go on a tangent that is outside their normal behavior pattern. Completely unpredictable.

Great. So sanction just those users for stepping out of line, with no parole. Since I was a child, I've been taught that there are consequences for my actions. And maybe some of these people who break the rules need to learn that themselves. But why should I be penalized (along with every other user) "just in case" someone "might" break the rules in the future?

This is the text book definition of "Cutting off the nose to spite the face".

 

[spaceballs]

This isn't a hard problem that you all say it is, it's a problem has been solved before on other forums.

These forums posts are all in a database, if mod sees retro active edits that is abusive per TOS, then they execute a query removing all New posts and reverting Edits to x time/date. Then they get issued a warning about being abusive in TOS, if they do it again they get banned.

If a mod can't do this above then I recommend they contact site owner to find a forum software that does support it.

 

[eco5280]

But it's not 'the masses of users'. It's a small group who want this changed.

Says you. Go poll every member. Keep it simple:

"Should you be able to edit your posts?"

You think 99% would say no. I think 100% would say yes.

 

[bonnie]

Says you. Go poll every member. Keep it simple:

"Should you be able to edit your posts?"

You think 99% would say no. I think 100% would say yes.

Again, I see what you did there.

Or, how about asking 'What is a reasonable length of time that you think you should be able to edit your posts?' Might get a totally different answer then. Because your question excludes any editing capability, mine assumes there is a reasonable length of time. Neither would be fair and get to the right answer.

I'd start by polling the people who have actually contributed to the site (See "Supporting Members" at Show Groups - Tesla Motors Club - Enthusiasts & Owners Forum) and get their opinion.

 

[HankLloydRight]

Again, I see what you did there.

Or, how about asking 'What is a reasonable length of time that you think you should be able to edit your posts?' Might get a totally different answer then. Because your question excludes any editing capability, mine assumes there is a reasonable length of time. Neither would be fair and get to the right answer.

But length of time doesn't matter. It's essentially arbitrary. Whatever the defined duration is, there are people who are going to have needs to edit posts after that time. And in fact of the case "that broke the camels back" weren't most of the edited/deleted posts still within the 24 or 48 hour time period after the thread was started? So this policy wouldn't have really worked anyway.

edit: I'd assert that editing posts is bi-modal -- people who want to make immediate changes/corrections (within say one day), and other people that want to make unlimited changes without a time restriction. You're right Bonnie, there's little need in the middle, but there is need at both ends. So you can't restrict one without restricting the other.

I belong to another car forum that gives you about 5 minutes to edit your posts.. and after that -- zip. Can't change it. Guess how much I now visit that forum once they instituted that policy? It's just not worth the hassle or frustration to put up with such restrictive rules. I might read the forum for helpful info, but I sure don't post anything.

I'd start by polling the people who have actually contributed to the site (See "Supporting Members" at Show Groups - Tesla Motors Club - Enthusiasts & Owners Forum) and get their opinion.

Wow... I'd think that's the group that would most rally against this new policy -- the ones that have the most invested in the community. Also, I personally don't see how being a "supporting member" is a valid subset of the forum population (statistically speaking) for a question like this (IMHO).