2023 200TW Tire Assessment

Hey All! We got some pretty good exposure to lots of different tires during the Model 3 Challenge, and we put lots of laps on them. Here's my thoughts on where we stand on the current selection. It's also important to note that our cars generally have some fairly unique requirements, as compared to lighter cars, or cars that can lap for 30+ minutes at a time.

Bridgestone RE-71RS - This looks to be the king of the 200TW for the Model 3. They come up to temperature fast, they run some of the fastest hot laps, and they wear much better than something like an A052. They do tend to lose a little bit of spice over repeated laps, but the falloff isn't all that significant.

Nankang CR-S V2 2023 - These look like a good contender to the other fastest-paced 200TW tires, but they take some time to build up to temperature for hot laps. Outright pace is similar to the RE-71RS, and they seem to hold up to repeated lapping better, but they are not the best option for time-trials due to the extended time required heating them.

Falken RT660 - The pace on these seems to be slightly off that of the RE-71RS. They also appear to wear more quickly, and have similar heat characteristics, falling off a bit with repeated lapping. Probably not the king of the hill at this point, but still near the pointy end.

Yokohama A052 - I've previously posted my thoughts on these, and they haven't much changed. Their pace and warmup characteristics are very similar to that of the RE-71RS, but they fall-off very fast and wear very quickly. Only recommended if you have a big budget and are focused on single fast laps.

Goodyear Supercar 3 - The Supercar 3 is a well-rounded tire, and does street and track duty well. If you're looking for something to do both, this is a very solid option. It does not quite have the pace of the faster 200TW tires, but it does wear well, and withstands heat well.

Kumho V730 - These tires are a good choice for those looking to put lots of laps in. They don't have the pace of the faster 200TW tires, but they warm up quickly, wear well, and have high heat tolerance levels. A year ago, they were also priced ~30% cheaper than other options, making them a compelling choice. This appears to have changed since then. Still a good solution for lappers.

Michelin Pilot Sport 4S - I would consider this the go-to tire for wet track usage. They aren't a contender in the dry, but in slippery conditions they shine. A great well-rounded tire that everyone is familiar with.

I think we should also point out that we also found, and this is likely compounded by the weight of the Model 3, that a relatively wide wheel with a narrower tire was generally a faster option. E.g. a 275 on a 10.5" wheel was well suited, while a 305 on that same wheel was not, and ended up with a lot of edge rollover. Similarly, a 275 on a 9.5" wheel was likely slower than a 255 on that same wheel. It's important to choose your tire first before selecting a wheel. As a general rule of thumb, you want the tread width of the tire to be the same or 0.5" narrower than the width of the wheel.

I think that about sums it up. Do you have feedback on some other options? Let me know here!

"Model 3 Wheel" by jurvetson is licensed under CC BY 2.0.
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[dsgerbc]

would one see much benefit with such an investment over the aforementioned 275/10.5 setup?

Probably a question for the Autox thread.
If you care more about HPDE times, then sure, your lap times will likely benefit from wider fender/tires/wheels.

For autox, getting fenders takes you into XS, with a lot tougher PAX (which is driven by other faster cars in the class). If you care about PAX'd standings, going XS probably won't benefit you.

You don't need those fancy fenders to fit 295/35R18 or 305/30R19 setups. Both are a bit too wide for 10.5 wheels tho, resulting in somewhat mushy steering response unless you pump tire pressures up (which tends to reduce steady-state grip a bit). I'm probably getting 285/35/19-sized tires to try soon.

Good luck with you life events as well

 

[Mash]

Probably a question for the Autox thread.
If you care more about HPDE times, then sure, your lap times will likely benefit from wider fender/tires/wheels.

For autox, getting fenders takes you into XS, with a lot tougher PAX (which is driven by other faster cars in the class). If you care about PAX'd standings, going XS probably won't benefit you.

You don't need those fancy fenders to fit 295/35R18 or 305/30R19 setups. Both are a bit too wide for 10.5 wheels tho, resulting in somewhat mushy steering response unless you pump tire pressures up (which tends to reduce steady-state grip a bit). I'm probably getting 285/35/19-sized tires to try soon.

Good luck with you life events as well

HPDE benefits from tire temps, but high speed performance drops on wider tires. AutoX on a dry surface wins the most from wider tires.

295x35x18 is largest I would go - it already needs a lot of front camber...

 

[Dangerous Fish]

We can't get the RE-71 here in the UK, so have been using Cup2s or AR-1s up to now but the Yoko AD09 looks like it's going to be what we use once we use up our existing stocks.

 

[Lindenwood]

Probably a question for the Autox thread.
If you care more about HPDE times, then sure, your lap times will likely benefit from wider fender/tires/wheels.

For autox, getting fenders takes you into XS, with a lot tougher PAX (which is driven by other faster cars in the class). If you care about PAX'd standings, going XS probably won't benefit you.

You don't need those fancy fenders to fit 295/35R18 or 305/30R19 setups. Both are a bit too wide for 10.5 wheels tho, resulting in somewhat mushy steering response unless you pump tire pressures up (which tends to reduce steady-state grip a bit). I'm probably getting 285/35/19-sized tires to try soon.

Good luck with you life events as well

Yeah, I am not necessarily concerned about PAX standings. I almost certainly won’t be able to race consistently enough to actually build a season’s worth of points in one club, and not all clubs class the same (due to timing conflicts, I raced 1-2 events each across 4 different clubs last season). Additionally, I am moving closer to more road courses, so I expect in 2025 I’ll probably run 2-3 HPDEs and maybe 4-6 AutoX events. Ultimately, I’m just building a capable vehicle.

And yes, I am looking mostly at 19x11.5 and 19x12 wheels to have enough sidewall support for these widths! That’s really where the wider fenders come in, as a 305 on a 11.5 wheel will be notably wider in use than a 305 on a 10.5” wheel. But yes, if I end up running the fenders, and a 325 CR-S would serve me well, I’d happily go that route with a 19x12!

Mash:
HPDE benefits from tire temps, but high speed performance drops on wider tires. AutoX on a dry surface wins the most from wider tires.

295x35x18 is largest I would go - it already needs a lot of front camber...

When you say high speed performance, do you mean peak lateral grip? Steering precision? Would cause this?

 

[Mash]

Yeah, I am not necessarily concerned about PAX standings. I almost certainly won’t be able to race consistently enough to actually build a season’s worth of points in one club, and not all clubs class the same (due to timing conflicts, I raced 1-2 events each across 4 different clubs last season). Additionally, I am moving closer to more road courses, so I expect in 2025 I’ll probably run 2-3 HPDEs and maybe 4-6 AutoX events. Ultimately, I’m just building a capable vehicle.

And yes, I am looking mostly at 19x11.5 and 19x12 wheels to have enough sidewall support for these widths! That’s really where the wider fenders come in, as a 305 on a 11.5 wheel will be notably wider in use than a 305 on a 10.5” wheel. But yes, if I end up running the fenders, and a 325 CR-S would serve me well, I’d happily go that route with a 19x12!



When you say high speed performance, do you mean peak lateral grip? Steering precision? Would cause this?

I mean that you lose power more on a high speed straights.

 

[Nabush]

Yeah, I am not necessarily concerned about PAX standings. I almost certainly won’t be able to race consistently enough to actually build a season’s worth of points in one club, and not all clubs class the same (due to timing conflicts, I raced 1-2 events each across 4 different clubs last season). Additionally, I am moving closer to more road courses, so I expect in 2025 I’ll probably run 2-3 HPDEs and maybe 4-6 AutoX events. Ultimately, I’m just building a capable vehicle.

And yes, I am looking mostly at 19x11.5 and 19x12 wheels to have enough sidewall support for these widths! That’s really where the wider fenders come in, as a 305 on a 11.5 wheel will be notably wider in use than a 305 on a 10.5” wheel. But yes, if I end up running the fenders, and a 325 CR-S would serve me well, I’d happily go that route with a 19x12!



When you say high speed performance, do you mean peak lateral grip? Steering precision? Would cause this?

Not sure you will clear the front knuckles with a 19x12 wheels especially if you run high negative camber... Or you will need spacers or aggressive offset...

 

[Lindenwood]

Not sure you will clear the front knuckles with a 19x12 wheels especially if you run high negative camber... Or you will need spacers or aggressive offset...

Yeah it seems with aftermarket rotors, about a +33-35 offset is required to avoid the barrel rubbing on the knuckle (notwithstanding the tire itself). Therefore, with an additional ~19mm of material I would require a +15 offset at minimum, with maybe a bit of knuckle grinding for barrel clearance. Fortunately, with less tire bulge the tire itself shouldn’t be as much of an issue at the upper part of the knuckle.

Fortunately, the wheel is aligned to the knuckle so camber doesn’t affect knuckle clearance (but absolutely does affect fender clearance)!

I don’t think it will be significant, but indeed I have been pondering about whether the larger scrub radius would meaningfully impact steering feel (relative to the existing steering effects from high camber, higher caster, and much wider / stickier rubber, not to mention Ive already did a full year of racing on +22 wheels).

 

[MasterC17]

@MasterC17 @Mash @dsgerbc

I probably wont be able to autoX this season (having a baby, moving across the country, and starting a new job this spring and through the summer), so I am getting my lists ready for winter upgrades…

At what point are we going overboard on width?

I was originally thinking a 275 Re-71Rs on a 10.5 wheel, but got to looking at CMSTs mild wide-body kit that should allow an extra 22mm of tire width up front. In theory, this opens up the following front fitments (especially in 18”, these are somewhat limited by available wheel widths that will fit and still provide good sidewall support to get the most out of the tire):

RE-71RS:
—295/35R18
—305/30R19

CR-S
—295/35R18
—325/30R19

Obviously, even doing the bodywork myself, this takes me from <$4000 for simple Konig 10.5” wheels and 275 Re-71s, to easily double the expense for the overfenders, wider 11.5-12” wheels, and the wider tires.

I am not building for a particular class; I am just enjoying building a capable vehicle for AutoX with the occasional HPDE. (FWIW, even on cheap Federal 595s, I have FTDd in multiple local AutoX events, and coned away my 2nd place RAW finish at my last PCA event with almost 50 racers. I do expect even the planned 275/10.5 RE-71Rs upgrade would have helped pretty significantly. I am not an alien or anything, but I do have about 30 years of Motorsport experience on 2 and 4 wheels). All that said, would one see much benefit with such an investment over the aforementioned 275/10.5 setup?

Thanks!

Good luck with the move, hope everything goes smoothly!

IMO the wide-body is completely overkill. It's expensive, you won't get the resale value out of it, and we're talking about probably tenths of a second here.

I've found 275's on 10.5's to work quite well, so that's what I would recommend sticking with. I am sure there may be a bit more speed on a say 305 and 11.5" wide wheel, but it's not worth it.