New renderings of storage space and 2nd row seats! (9/15)

[brandeeno]

A lot this thread reminds me of various discussions before Apple releases a new product. As the release gets closer, more data is released and Apple fans and forum followers make assumptions on these pictures and loose feature definitions. The Apple fans get disappointed before the product comes out or even once it is out. But in reality, majority of the buyers are not Apple fans/forum followers and are happy with the released product and its surprises.

 

[dirkhh]

attempted summary to calm things down

So it seems that emotions are running a bit high here - myself included

Can we all agree on something like this?

a) when the Model X was announced, Elon made certain statements that were reinforced in later communication, including a folding 2nd row, huge amounts of flat cargo space (illustrated by a picture), and a promise that everything in the final product would be better than what was shown at the announcement
b) regardless what your personal needs, expectations and likes might be, people may reasonably have taken what was announced and made their decisions based on that. it is irrelevant if those needs are typical, atypical or what not. It's about something that we were told and that we took at face value
c) based on the information we have from Tesla so far (insufficient as it is), it appears clear that there is no folding 2nd row, there is no huge amount of flat cargo space as illustrated by the rendering that started this thread

Given a-c it seems reasonable to accept that people are somewhere between disappointed and dismayed.

Let's stop attacking the reasons why some people may or may not desire the folding 2nd row and the flat cargo space.
Whether this has massive impact on the broader appeal of the car, whether the "typical" buyer will make a decision based on this... those are all great questions. But regardless of how you answer this, Tesla has taken in a lot of money from people who trusted that Tesla would fulfil their promises. This is trust from their apparently most loyal customer base. And that trust has taken a massive hit here.

Can we agree on this? And maybe stop arguing and attacking each other?

 

[hobbes]

I actually find it plausible the indicators were Eds was from the seat company and that folding second-row was delayed due to issues and appears in Model X later, making the initial car compromised by comparison.

I find this very plausible. Supplier couldn´t build complicated seats fast/cheap enough for planned quick ramp. So they were replaced by something more simple, to be possibly succeeded by a next-generation 2nd row in the future. But if it is so, they will most likely not anounce it a long time ahead. At least a seat should be relatively easy to replace.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

It's not that the seats are compromised or delayed; the design is set to have stowable seats (slide and tilt) but not folding. You perhaps missed that some of us have been told that general production seats won't be folding either. Like it or not (e.g. I can personally live without flat folding seats but have other questions) they have been designed that way.

I didn't miss it, I'm just not sure that is the whole truth. I do believe these seats will ship for Signatures and initial Production, but no way does that confirm either way what the reason for that is - or how long things remain that way.

Tesla away moving from the folding rear, that we know from the update email was still the plan in 2014, had to happen for some reason. If it happened due to issues and inability to delay the launch any more, then folding seats may happen sometime later once those issues are solved.

Perhaps Tesla will make announcements either way on September 29th.

 

[Blip]

(...) I want a utility vehicle able to fill the gap created by a 2-seater Roadster. Right now, that's a Jeep. I want it to be an X with the capability of what has been communicated to me.

Iirc, you have sig #2, Bonnie. Presuming You allready received the config. req., do You have any extra information on the 2. row issue?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

So it seems that emotions are running a bit high here - myself included

Can we all agree on something like this?

a) when the Model X was announced, Elon made certain statements that were reinforced in later communication, including a folding 2nd row, huge amounts of flat cargo space (illustrated by a picture), and a promise that everything in the final product would be better than what was shown at the announcement
b) regardless what your personal needs, expectations and likes might be, people may reasonably have taken what was announced and made their decisions based on that. it is irrelevant if those needs are typical, atypical or what not. It's about something that we were told and that we took at face value
c) based on the information we have from Tesla so far (insufficient as it is), it appears clear that there is no folding 2nd row, there is no huge amount of flat cargo space as illustrated by the rendering that started this thread

Given a-c it seems reasonable to accept that people are somewhere between disappointed and dismayed.

Let's stop attacking the reasons why some people may or may not desire the folding 2nd row and the flat cargo space.
Whether this has massive impact on the broader appeal of the car, whether the "typical" buyer will make a decision based on this... those are all great questions. But regardless of how you answer this, Tesla has taken in a lot of money from people who trusted that Tesla would fulfil their promises. This is trust from their apparently most loyal customer base. And that trust has taken a massive hit here.

Can we agree on this? And maybe stop arguing and attacking each other?

I would add that most, if not all, competing SUVs have folding second rows. It was not an unreasonable exception in that sense either, quite the contrary to expect a non-folding second row would have been unreasonable just days ago... Well, at least unless one believed in Eds.

Seriously, though, as hard as I've tried to foretell the Model X - and gave even Eds the time of day - I didn't see non-folding second row coming.

 

[eloder]

A question to those who think the second row isn't a big deal - What do you think will happen when Consumer Reports, Edmunds, Car and Driver, etc., do a detailed review of the vehicle and compare it to luxury SUVs from other manufacturers? They will say: Model X is superior in acceleration and handling, efficient, great for hauling 7 people. However, doors prevent use of a roof rack, lack of storage and inability to haul large objects because the second row doesn't fold flat like it does in all other vehicles in its class, etc. The negatives will definitely affect sales among people who have not yet drunk the Tesla kool-aid, and are already worried about "long charging times, limited range," etc....

I don't think it'll be mentioned much at all by big reviewer sites.

Supercar accelerations in supersized family cars result in Tesla grins, folding seats do not. Gull wing doors result in talk, folding seats do not.

Just think about how disproportionately the retracting door handles are mentioned on the Model S versus standard luxury features that the MS lacks compared to competitors. Look at how much article space is dedicated to the speed and acceleration of the car versus its ability to cart plywood around. Tesla's speciality right now is making incredible drivetrains, and making 2.5+ ton family cars that can outperform a McLaren on a drag strip. People really like having a car that's a commuter (efficient), practical (great seating/storage abilities), and fun (sports car outing on the weekends). The Model S and the Model X are the ONLY cars that can cover all three bases right now. Even if there are storage limitations, this will draw far more buyers away from the competition, then Tesla will lose going to the competition.

If Tesla makes a truck or a true SUV that can't haul plywood around, by all means, they'll probably get a lot of negative reviews. But that isn't the case here. The only people who will end up attacking the MX in the press are the same people who give the MS negative reviews now for being impractical and gimmicky.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I don't think it'll be mentioned much at all by big reviewer sites.

Supercar accelerations in supersized family cars result in Tesla grins, folding seats do not. Gull wing doors result in talk, folding seats do not.

Just think about how disproportionately the retracting door handles are mentioned on the Model S versus standard luxury features that the MS lacks compared to competitors. Look at how much article space is dedicated to the speed and acceleration of the car versus its ability to cart plywood around. Tesla's speciality right now is making incredible drivetrains, and making 2.5+ ton family cars that can outperform a McLaren on a drag strip. People really like having a car that's a commuter (efficient), practical (great seating/storage abilities), and fun (sports car outing on the weekends). The Model S and the Model X are the ONLY cars that can cover all three bases right now. Even if there are storage limitations, this will draw far more buyers away from the competition, then Tesla will lose going to the competition.

If Tesla makes a truck or a true SUV that can't haul plywood around, by all means, they'll probably get a lot of negative reviews. But that isn't the case here. The only people who will end up attacking the MX in the press are the same people who give the MS negative reviews now for being impractical and gimmicky.

Model S's excellent cargo capacity gets praise ALL the time.

In comparison Model X, as seen, sucks.

And we should just be happy about that? About being "good enough" perhaps? Model S is great in this area. Now it seems Model X won't be, at least for a while.

 

[Krugerrand]

I was trying to play mediator.

Yep, I got that and why I specifically said at one point that I wasn't specifically referencing you personally. I simply used your post to quote and blabber on.

Somehow I get the feeling you took me as a villain.

Not even a little bit.

For context, Kruger, are you 100% committed to a MX purchase?

As I said in a recent post (different thread?), I am not a customer of a premium SUV in this life time.

- - - Updated - - -

IMO, the EV nature of the car was enough to rack up the sales numbers they need. The risks with the bird doors and the fold down seats were not needed. Why not a conservative approach here? I am sure the doors will pull some sales in, but they will also take some sales out.

I can answer your question: Elon Musk. That's why not a conservative approach. But it's possible you'll get your conservative wish with the Model 3.

 

[scottf200]

So it seems that emotions are running a bit high here - myself included

Can we all agree on something like this?

a) when the Model X was announced, Elon made certain statements that were reinforced in later communication, including a folding 2nd row, huge amounts of flat cargo space (illustrated by a picture), and a promise that everything in the final product would be better than what was shown at the announcement
b) regardless what your personal needs, expectations and likes might be, people may reasonably have taken what was announced and made their decisions based on that. it is irrelevant if those needs are typical, atypical or what not. It's about something that we were told and that we took at face value
c) based on the information we have from Tesla so far (insufficient as it is), it appears clear that there is no folding 2nd row, there is no huge amount of flat cargo space as illustrated by the rendering that started this thread

Given a-c it seems reasonable to accept that people are somewhere between disappointed and dismayed.

Let's stop attacking the reasons why some people may or may not desire the folding 2nd row and the flat cargo space.
Whether this has massive impact on the broader appeal of the car, whether the "typical" buyer will make a decision based on this... those are all great questions. But regardless of how you answer this, Tesla has taken in a lot of money from people who trusted that Tesla would fulfil their promises. This is trust from their apparently most loyal customer base. And that trust has taken a massive hit here.

Can we agree on this? And maybe stop arguing and attacking each other?

Reasonable post. Given the choice I would have picked a folding 2nd row of seats. I've used that space in my current SUV a variety of times but not regularly.

I'm looking forward to the reasons and pros/cons that Elon and the design team picked for the current seats.

I'm currently still planning on getting the Model X even with the non-folding but independently (?) forward rotating 2nd row of seats. I would consider taking out the middle seat in the second row (ala Captains chairs like I have in my current SUV).

 

[smac]

I'm looking forward to the reasons and pros/cons that Elon and the design team picked for the current seats.

I'm not sure you'll get a straight answer Most likely explanation is something technical came up (e.g. crash testing) and the decision was forced. How this is down played with some sort of justification will be interesting to see, but the benefits will be contrived at best.

I'm currently still planning on getting the Model X even with the non-folding but independently (?) forward rotating 2nd row of seats. I would consider taking out the middle seat in the second row (ala Captains chairs like I have in my current SUV).

I'd be surprised if they were user removable.

Certainly one option open to Tesla would be to allow you to configure the car without it from the factory. It would at least offer a straight run through the center of the car for long items ( at the expense of making it a 6 seater.)

 

[Krugerrand]

I think another big disappointment is that the Model-X had such great potential, that wasn't realized due to this one "feature".

Potentially, though, this 'feature' could be added at a later date if that's what the customer at large demands. At some point I suspect the reason for the change will become known. One suggestion we've heard is that a folding seat and/or some result of those folding seats in conjunction with the falcon wing doors and locale of safety belts, wouldn't allow for a 5*+ safety rating. That might not be an issue for many - until it is. Safety is as important for a lot people as are folding seats for flat cargo space. If it was a matter of choosing between the two, I'd have to give Tesla the nod for putting safety first and hope that they're working on an engineering solution that would allow for both.

 

[gregincal]

To try to summarize my key point, though: This is a huge issue and perhaps a huge problem for some of you. But I don't think this is a significant problem for most Model X buyers or Model X demand/satisfaction.

Whereas I disagree. I believe it will be an issue for a majority of potential Model X buyers and could potentially significantly impact Model X demand. You dispute what people have said on the board in the polls (which I agree aren't really that meaningful), but unless I've missed it have provided no evidence at all to back up your opinion.

Hopefully though Tesla isn't doing something stupid and the situation is better than it seems currently.

 

[CyberDutchie]

If Model X can seat 5+Bike (like it seems in the render), it's a major improvement over Model S 2+Bike.

And when you add the major increase in Frunk+Trunk space compared to the puny frunk in the Dual motor Model S, I'd go for the X any day (I won't personally because I don't have a large family or pets but that's besides the point).

If there's a real complaint against X, it's basically not having a roof rack (especially needed for super long items) and no panoramic sunroof that opens, not the cubic capacity.

The Model X seating 5+bike is indeed a major advantage. I have had so many times where I want to bring a bike when other family members are coming with me. With Model S we have to take two cars.

It seems it's gonna be easy to fit the bike and still have the 2nd row when you take the front wheel off, which I have to do now in Model S to make my bike fit. And, there is also the option of the bike rack. This is going to be a great car if you are into biking, like me!

 

[anticitizen13.7]

So it seems that emotions are running a bit high here - myself included

Can we all agree on something like this?

a) when the Model X was announced, Elon made certain statements that were reinforced in later communication, including a folding 2nd row, huge amounts of flat cargo space (illustrated by a picture), and a promise that everything in the final product would be better than what was shown at the announcement
b) regardless what your personal needs, expectations and likes might be, people may reasonably have taken what was announced and made their decisions based on that. it is irrelevant if those needs are typical, atypical or what not. It's about something that we were told and that we took at face value
c) based on the information we have from Tesla so far (insufficient as it is), it appears clear that there is no folding 2nd row, there is no huge amount of flat cargo space as illustrated by the rendering that started this thread

Given a-c it seems reasonable to accept that people are somewhere between disappointed and dismayed.

Let's stop attacking the reasons why some people may or may not desire the folding 2nd row and the flat cargo space.
Whether this has massive impact on the broader appeal of the car, whether the "typical" buyer will make a decision based on this... those are all great questions. But regardless of how you answer this, Tesla has taken in a lot of money from people who trusted that Tesla would fulfil their promises. This is trust from their apparently most loyal customer base. And that trust has taken a massive hit here.

Can we agree on this? And maybe stop arguing and attacking each other?

I agree with all of your comments on the Model X and the reaction of reservation holders.

Unfortunately, I like to argue and attack people with whom I don't agree with. It's just the way I am, so people better look out

 

[Lyon]

I'd be surprised if they were user removable.

Unless they're welded in place they're removable and even then if someone REALLY wanted to get rid of them they'll find a way. It'll likely look pretty dumb and/or expose things underneath.

I agree, however, that they're not likely to design a system that intends to be removed and replaced easily.

 

[AnOutsider]

IMO some people are logically upset because the parameters changed from what they were previously told.

Edit: Take a look at what people were told the very same evening they were invited to put down their deposits...(Start at 20:10)

I find this funny in hindsight (how much flatter the bike laid in 2012):

I can understand why people would be upset given the differences from the prototype, but at the same time, prototypes change all the time when going to full production. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse...

Because Tesla repeatedly claims their production vehicles are better than what they showed off as a prototype.

How is this different from any other prototype to full production situation? If unhappy, people should just cancel. It's not like you'll be waiving your deposit, nor is it like Tesla prevents you from being able to defer your order until details are known.

In my case, their unclear communication has actually created that exact situation.

I don't think Tesla needs to hold onto every last reservation given what they've shown, and the fact that it's an SUV that can out-perform a McLaren at the drag strip. People will pay through the nose for something that has more overall space than a Minivan with supercar-like performance.

That's all well and good, but not the topic at hand: which is folks disappointed thata touted feature of the X doesn't seem to have made it to production.

You don't get a Tesla grin by folding down the second row seats of your Jeep.

Neither do you get it by being repeatedly let down by the company.

 

[ZachShahan]

since you mention pedantic pet peeve I find it odd that you cover Tesla so much and still misuse the term gull wing doors when referring to the model X.

Model X has falcon wing doors.



are you of the mind that Musks opinion on the difference is immaterial and they should just be called gullwing? Why post on a Tesla forum and not use the Tesla terminology?

I've seen people on here arguing that they're actually gull-wing doors, and I don't recall seeing/hearing that argument from Elon (I don't see everything). I've used both terms over the years, but would say I've used "falcon-wing" >95% of the time.

- - - Updated - - -

So it seems that emotions are running a bit high here - myself included

Can we all agree on something like this?

a) when the Model X was announced, Elon made certain statements that were reinforced in later communication, including a folding 2nd row, huge amounts of flat cargo space (illustrated by a picture), and a promise that everything in the final product would be better than what was shown at the announcement
b) regardless what your personal needs, expectations and likes might be, people may reasonably have taken what was announced and made their decisions based on that. it is irrelevant if those needs are typical, atypical or what not. It's about something that we were told and that we took at face value
c) based on the information we have from Tesla so far (insufficient as it is), it appears clear that there is no folding 2nd row, there is no huge amount of flat cargo space as illustrated by the rendering that started this thread

Given a-c it seems reasonable to accept that people are somewhere between disappointed and dismayed.

Let's stop attacking the reasons why some people may or may not desire the folding 2nd row and the flat cargo space.
Whether this has massive impact on the broader appeal of the car, whether the "typical" buyer will make a decision based on this... those are all great questions. But regardless of how you answer this, Tesla has taken in a lot of money from people who trusted that Tesla would fulfil their promises. This is trust from their apparently most loyal customer base. And that trust has taken a massive hit here.

Can we agree on this? And maybe stop arguing and attacking each other?

I definitely agree.

- - - Updated - - -

I didn't miss it, I'm just not sure that is the whole truth. I do believe these seats will ship for Signatures and initial Production, but no way does that confirm either way what the reason for that is - or how long things remain that way.

Tesla away moving from the folding rear, that we know from the update email was still the plan in 2014, had to happen for some reason. If it happened due to issues and inability to delay the launch any more, then folding seats may happen sometime later once those issues are solved.

Perhaps Tesla will make announcements either way on September 29th.

A number of clues add up to your hypothesis. I think it's quite likely... or that this was the story but Tesla will just stick with these seats rather than implement folding ones down the road.

Hard to know, but Eds seemed to not be joking.

Hopefully we'll get more details than not on Sept 29, but I'm not counting on much.

- - - Updated - - -

Whereas I disagree. I believe it will be an issue for a majority of potential Model X buyers and could potentially significantly impact Model X demand. You dispute what people have said on the board in the polls (which I agree aren't really that meaningful), but unless I've missed it have provided no evidence at all to back up your opinion.

Hopefully though Tesla isn't doing something stupid and the situation is better than it seems currently.

Well, I definitely hope that's not the case. I guess we'll have to wait and see how demand looks.

I think others have made my arguments already, and I have a little bit, but the basic idea is that not a lot of people need more cargo space than the Model X offers. A lot of people by SUVs/CUVs & 7-seaters because they have a lot of people to haul around and because they like sitting higher than others and feeling safer in their big vehicles. Just like most SUVs don't go off road, my assumption is that most people in the market for such a vehicle will see the cargo space and say, "yeah, that'll do." Then they'll be blown away that their 7-seat SUV can burn a Porsche, Ferrari, or Lambo off the line. ... + absurd efficiency and zero emissions.

But, yes, none of us have data, there isn't data that will represent reality yet, and we'll just have to wait to see.

 

[Cosmacelf]

I too suspect Eds was correct, and the folding second row seats just couldn't be made in time. Regardless, it sure would be nice if Elon were HONEST and TOLD US what the deal with the folding second row seats is. Since they were promised as of a year ago, what changed, Elon?

 

[Krugerrand]

Since they were promised as of a year ago, what changed, Elon?

Not arguing that a 'heads-up, we're changing the second row of seats' may have been in order, but knowing why *it* changed doesn't actually change anything, does it? Will knowing why it changed cause people to suddenly be okay with non-folding seats that don't suit their daily needs and have them running out to buy the X? (That's a no.)

The only thing that might change by knowing why *it* changed is some of the hurt feelings - that is if the reason *it* changed is a big enough deal to soothe. I'll note here that when people finally heard the reasonS for P85D and seat delays, one of the reasons completely out of Tesla's control, the majority of the people complaining about not having the info were NOT soothed by the information when they got it. Instead, they changed the forcus of their complaint.

So, I have doubts that people knowing the why is going to change much for most. Still, I think the time will come when the reason/s will be revealed. Perhaps during an interview or an ER or a shareholder's meeting...someone will ask the question.