FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[Daniel in SD]

If there was a limit line and it was behind the bushes, the law would have been satisfied even if the car couldn't properly see traffic. But because there was no limit line and the defendant stopped at the stop sign and stop lettering, the second part of the law became controlling.

The complaint on FSD is it doesn't stop at the limit line, but rather with it visible to the vehicle camera (which is about 2-3 feet back), which is inclusive of scenarios when there is clear visibility to traffic even stopping 2-3 feet back.

My understanding is that FSD creeps forward anyways if there are any visibility issues (for example in the above scenario if the limit line was where bushes would obscure the intersection, it would stop 2-3 feet to the limit line and then do a very slow creep until the intersection was visible).

I'm not sure that case law would be evidence that the actions of FSD would be deemed illegal. The limit line makes a big difference here.

it stops much farther than 2-3 feet from the limit line. Look at @AlanSubie4Life’s pictures!
Not sure why you’re imagining a hypothetical situation where the limit line is placed where you can’t see the cross traffic, that’s not where limit lines are.

In this case, wouldn't FSD creep to gain visibility? It wasn't a controlled intersection.

Creeping is why the guy got the ticket. You’re supposed to stop where you can see the intersection. If you stop where you can’t see the intersection and then creep what’s the point of stopping? You might as well just do a “California stop”

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

It is illegal to stop too far back in California. Defendant convicted for stopping 10 feet back.

The above linked case makes me so happy. Thanks. The appeals court called out all the things I have mentioned as potential dangers of the stopping behavior.

The problem with FSD is that on occasion, it can conduct its "NHTSA stop" very far back from the stop line. It stops at a position where it could not possibly see the intersection properly, and it makes it difficult for other road users to assess right of way. This has happened to me, in real life, at four-way stops, in La Jolla Cove. It stopped so far back from the line that people had no idea whether I had stopped.

After FSD makes the NHTSA stop, there is no guarantee (particularly at 4-way stops) that it will make another stop. It often creeps, or simply goes, if it decides it has right of way.

So it's a problem, on occasion. I have no idea whether this issue has been addressed to any degree in 12.3.6. I doubt it.

Again, it doesn't happen all the time - it happens sometimes. But it's not "outlier" type behavior - it happens too often. I have no idea what the factors are that cause it. I feel like four-way stops (especially without marked crosswalks) make it more likely, but I'm not sure about that.

The solution is to press the accelerator to prevent the stop, until the car gets to the right point, and then let it do the stop.

The defendant stopped approximately here (by his own admission), and received a ticket which was upheld on appeal. It's a remarkably similar position to those I have posted: (Note that this is about 10 feet from the crosswalk.)

Actual link:

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

you're concerned that stopping 6-8 feet from a stop line (or crosswalk at an intersection) is illegal.

Yes. You can see from my picture that it was clearly closer to 8 feet. And sometimes, on occasion, it can be a bit more. Those are the cases I am concerned about. I want the car to stop in a spot that is safe, respectful of pedestrians in the crosswalk, allows visibility, and establishes right of way. It's really not that hard. Reading the case above, they mention many of the relevant considerations.

I think stopping very far back is neither legal nor appropriate.

limit line is placed where you can’t see the cross traffic, that’s not where limit lines are.

Well...sometimes they are. I think because they try to make sure there's space for an unmarked crosswalk. But yes, not really too relevant here. If the line's there, you have to stop at it, then creep. Visibility which may be limited at the limit line is going to be even worse if you stop another 8 feet back.

 

[drtimhill]

Creeping is why the guy got the ticket. You’re supposed to stop where you can see the intersection. If you stop where you can’t see the intersection and then creep what’s the point of stopping? You might as well just do a “California stop”

But that's what DOES happen. I can think of a dozen stops near me with limit lines that are WAY too far back to give good visibility. So you stop (or at least come vert close to it) and creep up carefully until you can see. As for "what is the point of stopping", well, welcome to the world of bureaucrats.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

As for "what is the point of stopping", well, welcome to the world of bureaucrats.

Not even sure what this means. Stopping at a limit line accomplishes several important functions, even if the limit line does not afford good visibility.

And moving that limit line forward to give better visibility is contrary to those functions.

 

[hey8you]

I tied autopark with 12.3.5 where 12.3.4 had issues. I parked in the same 3 spots. 2 times parked great, The 3rd try I had to intervene.

First 2 attempts were great.

Last attempt was not so great. I had the hit the brakes.

 

[lascavarian]

Just have to squint, a lot.

Obviously this approach is not going to work with current vehicles.

There is a difference between “are we there?” and “can we get there?”.

I could not see how a global RT design was possible but now I think there may be a path to a design that makes it possible… maybe.

FSD is part of solving multiple problems. Tesla Vision NN is refining the controls (driving skills) and vision as best possible. Tesla Vision is a black box NN.

After that, it is conceivable that a cultural library of rules based on geography is possible. Seems similar to mapping SW to me. Then use a LLM approach to develop a narrative consistent with the appropriate cultural library and feed that narrative to the Tesla Vision NN where the near term solution is solved again in the form of a narrative.

The near term solution varies with speed and input from real time and other data sources.

Tesla Vision “performs” the narrative within the vehicle limitations in the real world. Repeat for the next portion of the narrative.

Cultural libraries can be downloaded as required with changing geography such as crossing a national border.

The LLM in this case can be Groq or a subset thereof.

The cultural libraries can be friendly to regulatory agencies and provide a bit of control detail that NN black boxes lack.

Some such design might work. If there are glimmers of this working then it could be the basis of a refocus of plans. YMMV of course.

 

[aronth5]

Not even sure what this means. Stopping at a limit line accomplishes several important functions, even if the limit line does not afford good visibility.

And moving that limit line forward to give better visibility is contrary to those functions.

Frankly unless there are clear pedestrian lines I would always stop where I have the visibility to decide when to go. I never paid much attention to lines it's always about being able to see safely. FSD just has to stop/creep a little further to see adequately. (B-pillar) And as I posted earlier at many Stop sign intersections where I live there are no lines anyway. I typically never paid any attention to the actual placement of the Stop sign. Just go right up to the creep line, stop then decide when to go. That's what FSD should go rather then taking over 10 seconds sometimes to get to the creep limit (Grandma approach).

 

[Midnightsun]

Creeping is why the guy got the ticket. You’re supposed to stop where you can see the intersection. If you stop where you can’t see the intersection and then creep what’s the point of stopping? You might as well just do a “California stop”

When my daughter went to driving school to get her permit at 16 years of age, there was a parent day where a parent had to attend. We were told us old people did not know how to drive and need to listen to how we would show our child to be able to drive the proper way.

One of the points that really bothered me is we were told to stop at a stop sign far enough ahead of the white line so we still had a visual of it and then creep until we could confirm nothing was coming and then go.

I argued that if police were hiding at the intersection they would not have seen my complete stop and I would get a ticket. They answered by saying "it happens"

A couple of other points during her final driving test, if the car had a backup camera it needed to be covered up. I had tiny convex mirrors on her exterior mirrors for better blind spot vision which were also not allowed. Keep in mind this was around 15 years ago.

 

[cobra]

TeslaFi shows a bump of around 500 more vehicles pending 2024.3.25 primarily adding S/X. Anybody with vertical screen newly getting 12.3.6? Do the release notes include Autopark? Yesterday's rollout only went to about 50 legacy S/X.

Yes, almost… I got 2024.3.20 yesterday, installed, and then download of 2024.3.25 started mid-day. Release notes for .25 did not show Autopark (glad I checked…). Waited until later in the evening for downloads, but update disappeared before reaching 100%. Car showed up to date this morning, so almost had 12.3.6, not sure what happened.

 

[Todd Burch]

First 2 attempts were great.
View attachment 1043662View attachment 1043663

Last attempt was not so great. I had the hit the brakes.
View attachment 1043664

I seem to read reports of people having more issues with autopark in parking garages. I think they probably just need more parking garage training data. People parking outside for the most part seem to have good success.

 

[aronth5]

1 nag today after 15 minutes on the highway then drove another 12 minutes to exit ramp, then 2 minute city/street drive with no nags. So 29 minutes with 1 nag. Then 2 other city/street drives around 12 minutes each with no nags on either drive Wow. 12.3.6

 

[kpanda17]

Spring update 2024.14, what FSD ver inside?

 

[Tronguy]

Dipping my toe back into the froth here, again.

Don't have 12.3.6 yet; still running 12.3.5. Did my first serious across-the-landscape drive. Generally, good results: One single intervention on a (total) 50 mile drive through Central Jersey during the middle of the day.

Rather than going into exotic details, here are the highlights:

• I still don't get why people complain so much about the Auto Max setting. Generally, it keeps up with traffic; even in those cases where it runs slower than those in front, it does catch up. I guess this is what's being called "Rubber Banding". Thing is, though: Say one is on auto max and falls a bit behind the traffic in front. We're not talking hundreds of yards here, we're talking, maybe, a maximum of 50 or so. Having said that, say that said line of traffic comes up to a traffic light. If the FSDS-running car was that far back, one would expect all sorts of cars to pull out in front of one and/or the people behind one to come up and tail gate. Neither happens. In the meantime, the actual speed hovers a bit lower and somewhat higher (say, 35-40 in a 30 mph zone), with or without other cars to follow. I think I get it: FSDS doesn't drive like particular users, and said users want the car to drive like them. If it doesn't match up... then it's Junk City. On the other hand, other drivers around me seem to act like the car's doing pretty much like other traffic and aren't getting fashed as a result, something that wasn't true on anything pre-12.x.
• A Clear Improvement, finally: There's this one two-lane road with no yellow lines, straight, that goes over a number of small hills. Its width varies, but, at one, "interesting" point it's fairly narrow and goes over the brow of a hill. Anybody sane hugs the right line, expecting anything from cars to dump trucks heading the other way, at speed. Yeah, there's a 25 mph limit; but normal practice is for both direction to go 35-40 mph, making the road somewhat hazardous if one doesn't stay stuck to the right. Previous versions of FSD really liked sitting in the middle of this road, and you guys don't want to know the number of times I've intervened and/or hit the button or whatever to complain to Tesla about this. Further, down towards the end of this fun stretch the road turns back and forth a bit; FSD had the habit of sometimes panicking and coming to a complete stop for, what, Fear.

With 12.3.5, all is sweetness and light. Stuck to the right; oncoming traffic, even that which, initially, was somewhat in the middle of the road (but shifted when they saw me) didn't make the car freak out. Kept up with traffic and didn't try to go dead slow, even with cars turning off to the right and left. Much, much better.​

• Strangenesses. There's this four lane road, two each direction, with Jersey Barriers in between and 50 mph limits. Turned right to get on this road. A half mile up, with absolutely no traffic around on my side, there was one of those 3'-diameter rubber medicine balls going 15-20 mph down the two travel lines, kind of wandering back and forth in its unguided way. No idea where it came from. Guess it fell off a pick-up truck, which didn't notice? As I came up, it started off on the left, then wandered off to the right. I was debating when I was going to intervene when the car autonomously shifted to the left lane about 200 yards away, then smoothly passed the thing. Now, that's a corner case. The reason for no traffic on my side was that, a mile or so back, there happened to be a red light. I didn't stick around to see What Was Going To Happen, but I was tempted.
• Lane Selection Actually Works, Sometimes. On the way up, there's a no-kidding No Kidding New Jersey Jughandle where, to turn left, one takes an exit on the right and curves around to the right, eventually facing a Red Light. When said light goes green, one crosses the main road that one had been on and turns left. Or whatever. This particular jughandle has one lane leaving the main road, but swiftly turns into three lanes facing that traffic light. The left two lanes are for (basically) U-Turns; the right-most lane is for heading back a bit, then turning right to go up a two-lane road that goes up a hill. FSDS got off the main drag, then, with a bit of hesitation at the stopped traffic in the jughandle (waiting for that light), got into the far right lane where it needed to be.
• Lane Selection Actually Works, Part Deux. On the way back, there's this two lane road that heads into a major downtown area at a "T" junction. The T-Junction is a bit unusual since it's a two-lane, right turn only; 50 yards after the right, the left lane of the two-right-turn lanes then allows one to turn left and continue on one's way. Previous versions of FSD always got this wrong, or mostly wrong: What, get into the left lane to turn right?. On 12.3.5 it jerked a little bit (Asking the NAV - "what do you mean, get into the left lane?"), but got into the left lane behind another car, then followed traffic properly.
• Lane Selection Actually Works, Part Trois: After eventually continuing on one's way through this downtown, there's a fun bit of road: Two lanes going forward, with the left lane for left turns and straight ahead and the right lane for straight ahead and right turns. The problem is that, immediately after leaving this intersection, there's maybe 100 yards of two lane road, ending up at an intersection where the right lane is right-turn-only; the left lane splits for left-turn-only and straight ahead. But if one gets into the left lane at the first light, one gets stuck behind left-turning traffic. But trying to get over after passing the first light is problematical because, if the intersection is clear, maniacs zoom by on one's left and sometimes block a merge to the left, what with lights being unsynchronized and all. It's hard for humans, too. On this go-around, FSDS had the car go into the right lane; immediately after passing through (with another car) on the green, it looked to the left, saw an opening, and went for it, successfully.
• Stop Signs. Something Is Going On For The Better. On 12.3.5 on this day I happened to take a path that went through multiple stop signs. Yeah, yeah, we know: The car halts slightly behind the white line, creeps sslllooowwwlly up, thinks about it for ten seconds, then goes for it. In the meantime, traffic piles up behind one and one gets strange looks. That happened 1/4 of the time and I intervened.

The other 3/4 of the time.. The car stopped and almost immediately after stopping, moved up a bit, relatively rapidly. If it was the car's turn (four-way stops) it went for it, rapidly. Whole process was about as fast as a human, maybe a second longer. This was new. Somebody at Tesla is tweaking something. It doesn't always works, but when it does, stop signs are not a hassle.​

​

Fun. 12.3.5 is definitely an improvement over 12.3.4, at least with stop signs!

 

[stealthyc]

• I still don't get why people complain so much about the Auto Max setting. Generally, it keeps up with traffic; even in those cases where it runs slower than those in front, it does catch up. I guess this is what's being called "Rubber Banding". Thing is, though: Say one is on auto max and falls a bit behind the traffic in front. We're not talking hundreds of yards here, we're talking, maybe, a maximum of 50 or so. Having said that, say that said line of traffic comes up to a traffic light. If the FSDS-running car was that far back, one would expect all sorts of cars to pull out in front of one and/or the people behind one to come up and tail gate. Neither happens. In the meantime, the actual speed hovers a bit lower and somewhat higher (say, 35-40 in a 30 mph zone), with or without other cars to follow. I think I get it: FSDS doesn't drive like particular users, and said users want the car to drive like them. If it doesn't match up... then it's Junk City. On the other hand, other drivers around me seem to act like the car's doing pretty much like other traffic and aren't getting fashed as a result, something that wasn't true on anything pre-12.x.

I complain because when there is *not* traffic, it seems to often go well under (17 in a 25) or well over (40 in a 30) the posted limit, with no seeming rhyme or reason.

 

[KLam]

The above linked case makes me so happy. Thanks. The appeals court called out all the things I have mentioned as potential dangers of the stopping behavior.

The problem with FSD is that on occasion, it can conduct its "NHTSA stop" very far back from the stop line. It stops at a position where it could not possibly see the intersection properly, and it makes it difficult for other road users to assess right of way. This has happened to me, in real life, at four-way stops, in La Jolla Cove. It stopped so far back from the line that people had no idea whether I had stopped.

After FSD makes the NHTSA stop, there is no guarantee (particularly at 4-way stops) that it will make another stop. It often creeps, or simply goes, if it decides it has right of way.

So it's a problem, on occasion. I have no idea whether this issue has been addressed to any degree in 12.3.6. I doubt it.

Again, it doesn't happen all the time - it happens sometimes. But it's not "outlier" type behavior - it happens too often. I have no idea what the factors are that cause it. I feel like four-way stops (especially without marked crosswalks) make it more likely, but I'm not sure about that.

The solution is to press the accelerator to prevent the stop, until the car gets to the right point, and then let it do the stop.

The defendant stopped approximately here (by his own admission), and received a ticket which was upheld on appeal. It's a remarkably similar position to those I have posted: (Note that this is about 10 feet from the crosswalk.)
View attachment 1043655

Actual link:

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Yes. You can see from my picture that it was clearly closer to 8 feet. And sometimes, on occasion, it can be a bit more. Those are the cases I am concerned about. I want the car to stop in a spot that is safe, respectful of pedestrians in the crosswalk, allows visibility, and establishes right of way. It's really not that hard. Reading the case above, they mention many of the relevant considerations.

I think stopping very far back is neither legal nor appropriate.


Well...sometimes they are. I think because they try to make sure there's space for an unmarked crosswalk. But yes, not really too relevant here. If the line's there, you have to stop at it, then creep. Visibility which may be limited at the limit line is going to be even worse if you stop another 8 feet back.

I have noticed that FSD usually stop at the "Stop" sign location. I think that's the programmed check location. Usually, on locations where I see the Stop sign location is far ahead of the stop line, I just tap the accelerator a bit to move the car closer to the stop line.

The stop logic could be more comprehensive to take into account of the stop line distances from the stop sign.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

That's what FSD should go rather then taking over 10 seconds sometimes to get to the creep limit (Grandma approach).

Definitely should be faster.

But has to obey the law and stop briskly at any stop sign or crosswalk before proceeding to creep and go (briskly, confidently, and assertively).

If you time the stop carefully you’ll find many seconds are wasted before the “NHTSA stop” as well.

I have noticed that FSD usually stop at the "Stop" sign location. I think that's the programmed check location.

But I thought v12 doesn’t know what a stop sign is and there is nothing explicitly programmed? And I thought it was trained on millions of human driving clips (generally this is not what humans do).

 

[gottagofast]

I feel like the time you get updates is based on how much you use FSD

Updates were always late for me but i started using FSD a lot when i first got ver 12 now everytime there’s an update i seem to get it on the 2nd day after its released

 

[chado]

So strange autopilot behavior now that my trial FSD expired.

Autopilot refuses to work on freeways, basically any place that 12.3 stack wasn't in use.
I tried rebooting using the two scroll wheels no change.

BUT autopilot on city streets, my car now turns on its blinker changes lanes and makes turns, based on my navigation destination.
It's really weird, the minimal lane changes option and the 3 modes (assertive and whatever), is gone, only thing i have now is the normal autopilot distance control.

My car is acting like it ONLY wants autopilot to function on 12.3 stack lol, I say 12.3 because autopilot ONLY works on city streets and NOT freeways but it feels dumber than 12.3 maybe its using 11.x?

When I try to enable autopilot on freeways it just makes the loud beep and pops up with the code relating to something about narrow lanes.
My screen also shows a weird visualization of a freeway off ramp V and I'm driving straight towards it over and over while cars drive around me lol.
Visualization goes back to normal when i exit the freeway.

 

[drtimhill]

So strange autopilot behavior now that my trial FSD expired.

Autopilot refuses to work on freeways, basically any place that 12.3 stack wasn't in use.
I tried rebooting using the two scroll wheels no change.

BUT autopilot on city streets, my car now turns on its blinker changes lanes and makes turns, based on my navigation destination.
It's really weird, the minimal lane changes option and the 3 modes (assertive and whatever), is gone, only thing i have now is the normal autopilot distance control.

My car is acting like it ONLY wants autopilot to function on 12.3 stack lol, I say 12.3 because autopilot ONLY works on city streets and NOT freeways but it feels dumber than 12.3 maybe its using 11.x?

When I try to enable autopilot on freeways it just makes the loud beep and pops up with the code relating to something about narrow lanes.
My screen also shows a weird visualization of a freeway off ramp V and I'm driving straight towards it over and over while cars drive around me lol.
Visualization goes back to normal when i exit the freeway.

Have you tried a reboot? Something is confused about the enabled features (and your might want to let a service tech look at the car too if one is available).

 

[GonePlaid]

Comparing the roughness of a drive to an Uber/Lyft or Waymo is not a fair comparison. In both those cases, you are not responsible for the actions of the car, you are only responsible for your own safety. That additional responsibility for both the vehicle and everyone else on the road raises the expectation for the quality of the drive to that of what one can do driving manually. After all, it is one's financial health that is on line here - insurance costs after an at-fault accident, repair costs ranging from scraped panels to damaged wheels, and medical costs/loss of income from even a minor accident requiring attention and/or recovery time. And the mental health cost from causing life-changing injuries or death to someone else if there is an avoidable or at-fault accident.

You would likely stop an Uber trip early if the driver was obviously impaired or incompetent because of the danger to your own safety. In the case of impairment or extreme incompetency you may also call police to make others safer on the road.

If every Uber/Lyft drive was terrible, you'd find people avoiding using that service for their own peace of mind.

Reading through the comments in this and other threads, I see the same tendency to avoid using FSDS in order to protect oneself or others. Many people voice the thought that they would not pay for FSDS, or the opinion that V12 is a giant leap forward (I share that view) but not ready for daily use for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that for City Streets it is not an assistant but an incompetent co-driver to keep in check.

And there are some who see extreme incompetency worthy of contacting the authorities to have the product taken off the road.

aronth5 inquired​

I can't imagine FSD would pass that test at all.

Of the 80,000 KM, our car has gone, about 2/3 have been driven with me as a passenger and a small subset with me in the backseat. On road trips in our previous vehicles, I would work in the back seat when it wasn't my turn to drive. I haven't tried this with V12 (there's no point, it is using V11 on freeways) but it has not been possible in the MY, I get headaches and general malaise from the motion sickness.

I can't work in the front seat either, but I can, at least, read my phone or tablet and, with more difficulty, paper documents. Note: this is with the car being either manually driven or with some form of ADAS beyond TACC. For V11.4.x on freeways, with me in the front seat, I get less car sick than usual and prefer my husband to use it (previous versions made me sick). If I'm actively co-piloting (watching out for errant FSD behaviours, managing NAV or other screen settings, general route planning, talking with the driver over what he's experiencing) I don't get car sick because my body is anticipating the motion of the car and focusing on contributing to the drive. I don't get any car sickness when driving the car. Including on the 4000km road trip I took on my own.

Over 6 decades, I have never felt car sick in any other car.

But I don't know if the blame for this is due to FSD. How much of this is due to the rough ride of the MY, the design of the back seat where seeing out the front is limited, or the pulse of the regen creating a surge/ease movement in addition to the rough ride? I'll admit our highways here are in terrible shape but that has always been the case, so the PriusV and Odyssey that I worked from before would have experienced the same rough roads and didn't result in car sickness for me. Both had back seats with views forward and the PriusV even had the recliner seating option (fully reclining the front passenger seat level with the back seat bench, so I could sit in the back seat slightly reclined, legs lying on the back of the front seat, and nap with a neck pillow, still safely constrained by the seat belt in case of accident.) That feature gave us the ability to go places and was why we bought that car before our usual 8 year cycle was up, I was recovering from hepatitis when the car was bought and couldn't be out of bed for more than 2 hours at a time. It is a major reason why I loved the car so much, it gave me back a bit of my life. (The tesla similarly gave us some life back by being our mobile isolation unit during covid so I laud it for that.)

I will say that my inability to work in the car on road trips is a major negative as that makes much of the travel time 'wasted' and the 'breaks' during charging are not where I would choose to stop and reset my brain. I really dislike road tripping with the tesla compared to our other vehicles. It takes longer and I cannot make good use of the time so it leads to me further resenting the car I doubt FSD will ever make a difference with that as I feel the car design itself is what leads to the car sickness.

If you want to work while traveling- upgrade to a Model S. It is larger and will be more comfortable for Laptop type work. I do it all the time and it is great.

I don’t agree with the statement that was made about FSD being “incompetent co-driver to keep in check”

Many of us use FSD on city streets every day quite successfully.

Just think about it- via AI and the expansion of the neural net using what will be billions of visual examples of what a competent driver looks like- FSD will make driving even safer.

I am hopeful we can get to that goal as it will be good for all of us.