My experience taking Tesla to court about FSD

[zoros]

Edbe49 - congrats on holding the line in the face of some serious clout from the other side.

Forgive my ignorance (having just bought a 21 plate M3 recently) but when you specifically ordered the FSD bolt on, what exactly did you think you were buying in terms of automation and especially in relation to the UK regs on automated vehicles?

I am both curious and cynical with the way the autopilot lobbyists in this country are playing their hand (so to speak). The nearest we will ever get to full autopilot driving in this country for atleast the next 10-15 years is what we have now - a driver sitting behind the wheel with their hands following every move the car makes - which of course makes a mockery of the process.

Views?
Many thanks

 

[edb49]

Edbe49 - congrats on holding the line in the face of some serious clout from the other side.

Forgive my ignorance (having just bought a 21 plate M3 recently) but when you specifically ordered the FSD bolt on, what exactly did you think you were buying in terms of automation and especially in relation to the UK regs on automated vehicles?

It's probably another thread... but I was expecting the car to be able to drive through a city environment with me there monitoring it & ready to intervene, and for it to be able to do that in 2020. (Essentially moving the AP experience from the motorway to the city.)

 

[zoros]

Thanks for the rapid response. Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticising you but why would anyone pay thousands of pounds to drive a car normalyl with the exception of moving their hands inches away from the steering wheel for an entire trip?
I don't understand why people want FSD in the Uk (let alone in the US)?

 

[Cardo]

Thank you for fighting for the little guy and following through with your claim, and subsequently fighting to be able to tell us about the outcome. You are a gentleman. I must say, I do feel rather conned by the FSD sale. I put the money down as Elon was banging on about massively increasing the cost, so thought I’d play it safe as it was a company purchase, anyway. However, two and a half years down the line, FSD is nowhere to be seen and if anything AP seems worse than it was when I first got the car. Certainly the latest update has made AP afraid of its own shadow! Unfortunately, when I bought the car the FSD claim was “soon” (or something along those lines. It now says “upcoming”) rather than “by 2019” or “by the end of the year” so I feel I wouldn’t really have a claim. Who can define what “soon” is?

Though, if enough people from the 2019/2020 era take Tesla to court maybe they’ll choose to be more sensible about it? Certainly would be good to at least be able to take FSD with you to a new car, at any point, rather than the sales push that was the short lived transfer window from a little while back.

 

[Whyone]

Why the thumb-down for OP's post @STUtoday?

 

[Durzel]

From what OP has said, Tesla wanted that, he refused and Tesla blinked.

Tesla wanted an NDA and also to prohibit the OP from even offering advice to anyone bringing or considering bringing legal action of their own. That’s huge.

In a way it does betray how badly they thought their defence was, in spite of whatever they were saying in legal correspondence.

 

[Durzel]

I’ll be going down this road as well. Like the OP when I ordered the website said “Coming later this year” (I also have proof of that).

I was thinking about getting a Plaid 3 (whatever the new P is) but irrespective of that there’s no way that FSD adds £5800 to the value of my car at this point. It has depreciated along with the car, and since the new cars will presumably have HW4 perhaps even more so. It is probably notable that Tesla themselves don’t value FSD as having any effect on residual value on their own finance quotes.

Selling my car with FSD would therefore lose me more in real terms than making a claim. Notwithstanding that, I also care more about the principal than the money - Tesla told me that “Automatic driving on city streets” (aka FSD) was “coming later this year” (2020). They missed that deadline (and the same one in 2019 that I had not seen). I would’ve given them a reasonable amount of latitude e.g. some time in 2021, but that never happened either and nearly 4 years on it’s still not here.

 

[edb49]

I must say, I do feel rather conned by the FSD sale. Unfortunately, when I bought the car the FSD claim was “soon” (or something along those lines. It now says “upcoming”) rather than “by 2019” or “by the end of the year” so I feel I wouldn’t really have a claim. Who can define what “soon” is?

I think you may still have a claim. The court will interpret words in this context as they're commonly understood. Saying "soon" in the context of a car update will be different to "soon" in the context of a phone update - phones have shorter lives.

A good guiding principle is that you expect to get material benefit from the update in your ownership time. If it was me, I would probably litigate if I planned to own the car for 5 years and more than half of it was without the update.

It's also relevant that they were showing demo videos of FSD allegedly working on a Model X, because that sets certain expectations.

My battle was slightly different, but don't think yours is hopeless!

 

[zoros]

It's going to be years before we have a comprehensive network capable of accomodating FSD in its entirety - in the UK.
Our roads don't lend themselves to this concept as readily as those in the USA.
At best, limited dedicated stretches will be allocated, such as motorways and some dual carriageways, possibly even some town/city neighbourhoods.
To many things to iron out before we get FSD capable here.
All IMO of course.

 

[Roy Batty]

It's going to be years before we have a comprehensive network capable of accomodating FSD in its entirety - in the UK.
Our roads don't lend themselves to this concept as readily as those in the USA.
At best, limited dedicated stretches will be allocated, such as motorways and some dual carriageways, possibly even some town/city neighbourhoods.
To many things to iron out before we get FSD capable here.
All IMO of course.

A few years of nationwide white line painting for a start, they seem to be disappearing slowly on the roads around me, regardless of autonomy it's a good way of making a road inherently safer.

 

[Jason71]

I wonder how many other people if any have taken legal action before. Given the NDA Tesla wanted to apply chances are we would never know without the ops determination not to be gagged.

 

[edb49]

I wonder how many other people if any have taken legal action before. Given the NDA Tesla wanted to apply chances are we would never know without the ops determination not to be gagged.

Yep, this fascinates me too. There were a handful of things where people said they were taking action and then went quiet. I guess we'll never know.

 

[zoros]

Exactly - because the cameras need white lines for feedback. I read on another forum that non EV FSD drivers would "take advantage" of said vehicles, knowing that these FSD cars drive autonomously in permanent defense mode for obvious reasons. They take advantage of these by cutting them up or driving ahead of them in queues because they know the EV will slow or stop to let them in!!
The list goes on.

 

[Tronguy]

OK. So, this was Small Claims court in the UK. And the cause of action (assuming I'm getting the legalese and English correct) was that FSD was promised to the buyer in 2019 on the web site, thus forming a contract.

Not that I want to get rid of the FSD software on my M3, but I bought it back in 2020. Don't remember any dates, but what the heck.

So, assume, for the sake of argument, that up through, say, March of 2019, Tesla had FSD for sale with that 2019 date in there.

Funny thing: The U.S. judicial system is very thoroughly based upon the UK system. For example, it's not unusual the the US Supreme Court to occasionally refer to, say, UK decisions dated back to the 1700's, or even earlier. (Saw the Magna Carta in a SCOTUS decision, once.)

So, judicial decisions are judicial decisions. And Tesla, in this Small Claims court, was, no question, the losing party. "Settlement" or no settlement.

The question is, then: Is this decision (of sorts) in a UK court going to move across the pond and start being cited in the U.S.?

How big a hit on Tesla's finances is this likely to be?

 

[Roy Batty]

OK. So, this was Small Claims court in the UK. And the cause of action (assuming I'm getting the legalese and English correct) was that FSD was promised to the buyer in 2019 on the web site, thus forming a contract.

Not that I want to get rid of the FSD software on my M3, but I bought it back in 2020. Don't remember any dates, but what the heck.

So, assume, for the sake of argument, that up through, say, March of 2019, Tesla had FSD for sale with that 2019 date in there.

Funny thing: The U.S. judicial system is very thoroughly based upon the UK system. For example, it's not unusual the the US Supreme Court to occasionally refer to, say, UK decisions dated back to the 1700's, or even earlier. (Saw the Magna Carta in a SCOTUS decision, once.)

So, judicial decisions are judicial decisions. And Tesla, in this Small Claims court, was, no question, the losing party. "Settlement" or no settlement.

The question is, then: Is this decision (of sorts) in a UK court going to move across the pond and start being cited in the U.S.?

How big a hit on Tesla's finances is this likely to be?

Not in the slightest, it didn't make it to court so no precedent has been set, regardless of jurisdiction. I very much doubt a small claims court action would have any bearing on a US court.

The OP's post shows that it's entirely possible to take Tesla to court, in the UK with the same circumstances, and they may well fold and settle, you never know though as they may decide to challenge it in court now it's in the public domain

Thought the US had a class action suit, not sure where that went as they've had much better FSD than us in the UK.

 

[edb49]

OK. So, this was Small Claims court in the UK. And the cause of action (assuming I'm getting the legalese and English correct) was that FSD was promised to the buyer in 2019 on the web site, thus forming a contract.

Not that I want to get rid of the FSD software on my M3, but I bought it back in 2020. Don't remember any dates, but what the heck.

So, assume, for the sake of argument, that up through, say, March of 2019, Tesla had FSD for sale with that 2019 date in there.

Funny thing: The U.S. judicial system is very thoroughly based upon the UK system. For example, it's not unusual the the US Supreme Court to occasionally refer to, say, UK decisions dated back to the 1700's, or even earlier. (Saw the Magna Carta in a SCOTUS decision, once.)

So, judicial decisions are judicial decisions. And Tesla, in this Small Claims court, was, no question, the losing party. "Settlement" or no settlement.

The question is, then: Is this decision (of sorts) in a UK court going to move across the pond and start being cited in the U.S.?

How big a hit on Tesla's finances is this likely to be?

To clarify, there wasn't a judicial decision here. I sued Tesla, but they ended up giving me everything I wanted before the court heard the case so there was never a judgement. The technical term in the UK is there was a "discontinuance" after Tesla had given me everything I wanted.

P.S. This is the way the UK legal system is supposed to work, e.g. parties settle their differences without a judge being required!

 

[JIBYC]

Did they remove FSD from your car?

 

[gangzoom]

Did they remove FSD from your car?

Let us know OP. If they didn’t we all be going down this route. If they did, I presume you can rebuy it again?

 

[edb49]

Let us know OP. If they didn’t we all be going down this route. If they did, I presume you can rebuy it again?

It was part of the settlement agreement for it to be removed, so yes. In the app it shows me options to buy EAP or FSD.

 

[Pagemakers]

Thanks for the rapid response. Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticising you but why would anyone pay thousands of pounds to drive a car normalyl with the exception of moving their hands inches away from the steering wheel for an entire trip?
I don't understand why people want FSD in the Uk (let alone in the US)?

Watch one of the self-driving Tesla videos from years ago. When I purchased my first Tesla 7 years ago I was told in a few months my car would do the same by the end of the year.

Now 7 years down the line if I can pass 10 cars safely on the motorway without the stupid bloody thing slamming on the brakes at 75mph in the outside lane, I’m having a great day!