FSD needs to learn how to read signs

One of the major problems I have had with FSD 12.3.6 is that is does not understand posted signage. Cases in point:
1. Traveling on "State Highway 35" in Wisconsin where the speed limit varies from 55MPH on open stretches to 40MPH around curves to 30MPH thru towns and as low as 20MPH in School Zones "When Children Are Present". So here we are on an open stretch traveling 55MPH when we pass a sign indicating that we are on State Hwy 35 - it's a black&white sign that does not resemble a speed limit sign but the car thinks it is the new speed limit and FSD all of a sudden decides to slow to 35 MPH at which point I either disengage or hit the accelerator to maintain 55MPH lest I get rear-ended. After several repeated instances of this behavior over a few miles, i decided to let it slow down and see if it figures out what the actual speed limit is. It seems that FSD notices the error and after about 5 seconds will, on its own, resume the posted speed. Thus, FSD and/or the car needs to understand exactly what kind of sign it is reading.
2. School Zones: FSD does not understand that it needs to own down in a school zone. This is a bit more complex task than just changing the speed of the car. My experience thru four different school zones is that FSD seems to ignore School Zone speed limits entirely and I had to disengage.
3. Speed Limit signs when going around sharp curves like Exit Ramps. For example, traveling 60MPH approaching a sharp curve that has signs posted to take the curve at 30MPH. FSD did not slow down and I had to disengage and took said curve at 42MPH. This has happened on multiple occasions so I rarely let FSD drive on roads with sharp curves (besides, I sound like my dad: "You're going too fast! Slow down!" And I'm 66 years old now)
4. Construction Zones: FSD sort of seems to know what a construction zone is but does not always seem to read or understand the "Construction Zone Speed Limit" signs -or- to resume the normal speed limit when it sees the "End Construction" sign.
5. Lane Indicator signs and perhaps road surface lane markings. Quite often the Navigation system seems to know which lane should be used in situations where there is, say, four lanes: a right turn only, a forward only, a forward-or-left, and a left turn only lane. FSD has often chosen the right-turn-only lane to go forward because there were cars in each of the lanes covering the lane markings. But there was a lane-indicator sign that FSD ignored. Again, FSD really needs to be able to read and understand all the various sorts of signs and put them into the immediate driving context.
6. Motoring down a freeway at 60MPH. Take an exit that, at the top of the ramp, has a single lane that simply continues onto the side street (there is no stop or yield sign and no merging with traffic on that road). There is a speed limit sign that reads "City-wide Speed Limit 25 unless otherwise posted". Then a few feet later there is a posted speed limit of 30MPH and FSD slows to 30MPH. A few feet after that, I have no idea why, FSD decides the speed limit is now 55MPH! Nope! I do not know what triggers this but it is repeatable. FSD should be more aware of what sort.of street it is on and take that context into consideration when it gets conflicting information.
7. This point isn't a posted sign issue but rather, the lack of a posted sign. Scenario: traveling on a road with a speed limit of 25MPH. Approaching an intersection where the only choice is to turn right onto the highway. Come to a stop sign, stop, turn right onto a highway that has a speed limit of 55MPH but that speed limit isn't posted when turning onto the highway so FSD creeps along at 25MPH on a 55MPH highway. FSD and/or the car Navigation system should know the speed limit for that highway.

 

[Dewg]

“Passed them by” in terms of providing driving automation - specifically hands-off, eyes-off driving automation. No one said anything about “all US streets,” and that seems like a strange metric to use for success, IMO, because all streets automation would really only be helpful for robotaxis, and even you have to agree there are a number of companies way ahead of Tesla on robotaxi deployment.

The only consumer car in the US with eye-off, hands-off is Mercedes with Drive Pilot L3, which isn't on the roads yet, at least that I can see. I see lots of test videos, and demos from Mercedes employees to the media/influencers, but not seeing average John Doe videos in action.

Hands-off, I'll grant you there are many companies passing Tesla in that regards. Eyes-off is where I question it.

 

[enemji]

The only consumer car in the US with eye-off, hands-off is Mercedes with Drive Pilot L3

IIRC, the eyes off is legal as long as you are watching something on the MB screen and not your own iPad etc

 

[Goose66]

Which manufacturers have “passed them by” for all US streets? I would like to test drive one let us know.

“Passed them by” in terms of providing driving automation - specifically hands-off, eyes-off driving automation. No one said anything about “all US streets,” and that seems like a strange metric to use for success, IMO, because all streets automation would really only be required for robotaxis, and even you have to agree there are a number of companies way ahead of Tesla on robotaxi deployment

The only consumer car in the US with eye-off, hands-off is Mercedes with Drive Pilot L3, which isn't on the roads yet, at least that I can see. I see lots of test videos, and demos from Mercedes employees to the media/influencers, but not seeing average John Doe videos in action.

Hands-off, I'll grant you there are many companies passing Tesla in that regards. Eyes-off is where I question it.

Well my main point (and I’ve made it many times before) is GM, Ford, and Mercedes are all in some stage of pursuing true hands-off, eyes-off automation at least on limited access highways to provide a useful (IMHO) automated driving feature that I would pay for while Tesla unfortunately has been stuck on the “all or nothing” AutoSteer on City Streets path and still seems to be a long way from offering true automated driving in any scenario (e.g. here where it still can’t read speed limit signs correctly).

 

[rjpjnk]

I noticed FSD seems to completely ignore yield signs. I have to disengage and yield manually or it just blows right through.

 

[Dewg]

“Passed them by” in terms of providing driving automation - specifically hands-off, eyes-off driving automation. No one said anything about “all US streets,” and that seems like a strange metric to use for success, IMO, because all streets automation would really only be required for robotaxis, and even you have to agree there are a number of companies way ahead of Tesla on robotaxi deployment

Well my main point (and I’ve made it many times before) is GM, Ford, and Mercedes are all in some stage of pursuing true hands-off, eyes-off automation at least on limited access highways to provide a useful (IMHO) automated driving feature that I would pay for while Tesla unfortunately has been stuck on the “all or nothing” AutoSteer on City Streets path and still seems to be a long way from offering true automated driving in any scenario (e.g. here where it still can’t read speed limit signs correctly).

And I respect your desire for that autonomous driving. My point is that we don't have it just yet. I too look forward to the time when we have it in a useful ODD, but I'm more pessimistic about companies burdening themselves with the legal ramifications just yet.

 

[KelvinMace]

One of the major problems I have had with FSD 12.3.6 is that is does not understand posted signage. Cases in point:
1. Traveling on "State Highway 35" in Wisconsin where the speed limit varies from 55MPH on open stretches to 40MPH around curves to 30MPH thru towns and as low as 20MPH in School Zones "When Children Are Present". So here we are on an open stretch traveling 55MPH when we pass a sign indicating that we are on State Hwy 35 - it's a black&white sign that does not resemble a speed limit sign but the car thinks it is the new speed limit and FSD all of a sudden decides to slow to 35 MPH at which point I either disengage or hit the accelerator to maintain 55MPH lest I get rear-ended. After several repeated instances of this behavior over a few miles, i decided to let it slow down and see if it figures out what the actual speed limit is. It seems that FSD notices the error and after about 5 seconds will, on its own, resume the posted speed. Thus, FSD and/or the car needs to understand exactly what kind of sign it is reading.
2. School Zones: FSD does not understand that it needs to own down in a school zone. This is a bit more complex task than just changing the speed of the car. My experience thru four different school zones is that FSD seems to ignore School Zone speed limits entirely and I had to disengage.
3. Speed Limit signs when going around sharp curves like Exit Ramps. For example, traveling 60MPH approaching a sharp curve that has signs posted to take the curve at 30MPH. FSD did not slow down and I had to disengage and took said curve at 42MPH. This has happened on multiple occasions so I rarely let FSD drive on roads with sharp curves (besides, I sound like my dad: "You're going too fast! Slow down!" And I'm 66 years old now)
4. Construction Zones: FSD sort of seems to know what a construction zone is but does not always seem to read or understand the "Construction Zone Speed Limit" signs -or- to resume the normal speed limit when it sees the "End Construction" sign.
5. Lane Indicator signs and perhaps road surface lane markings. Quite often the Navigation system seems to know which lane should be used in situations where there is, say, four lanes: a right turn only, a forward only, a forward-or-left, and a left turn only lane. FSD has often chosen the right-turn-only lane to go forward because there were cars in each of the lanes covering the lane markings. But there was a lane-indicator sign that FSD ignored. Again, FSD really needs to be able to read and understand all the various sorts of signs and put them into the immediate driving context.
6. Motoring down a freeway at 60MPH. Take an exit that, at the top of the ramp, has a single lane that simply continues onto the side street (there is no stop or yield sign and no merging with traffic on that road). There is a speed limit sign that reads "City-wide Speed Limit 25 unless otherwise posted". Then a few feet later there is a posted speed limit of 30MPH and FSD slows to 30MPH. A few feet after that, I have no idea why, FSD decides the speed limit is now 55MPH! Nope! I do not know what triggers this but it is repeatable. FSD should be more aware of what sort.of street it is on and take that context into consideration when it gets conflicting information.
7. This point isn't a posted sign issue but rather, the lack of a posted sign. Scenario: traveling on a road with a speed limit of 25MPH. Approaching an intersection where the only choice is to turn right onto the highway. Come to a stop sign, stop, turn right onto a highway that has a speed limit of 55MPH but that speed limit isn't posted when turning onto the highway so FSD creeps along at 25MPH on a 55MPH highway. FSD and/or the car Navigation system should know the speed limit for that highway.

I have a LOT of problems with v12.3.6 and speed limit signs. On a well marked, new section of highway with a 55 mph speed limit, it will suddenly decide the speed limit is 30 mph, and slows accordingly. I also have problems in school zones. FSD sees the pavement marking, slows down, but then immediately speeds back again once it passes over the pavement markings. THAT NOT HOW SCHOOL ZONES WORK!! Also have problems with exit ramps (going to fast) and entrance ramps (going to slow).

 

[KelvinMace]

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with you. I have spent the better part of 47 years in computer hardware and software development which is why I am thrilled to be able to help with the FSD training by using it as much as possible and providing as much useful feedback as possible. I post my observations because I am very curious to know if other FSD users have had similar experiences.
On the flipside of the FSD coin is the fact that FSD "learns" in real-time and I find that truly amazing. For example, I went to a friend's house where a "left turn lane" was replaced with a roundabout. FSD approached the roundabout and turned on the left blinker to make a left turn. I disengaged, completed the roundabout, and engaged FSD for the remainder of the trip. 45 minutes later I came back to that same intersection from the same direction with the same destination and FSD flawlessly navigated thru the roundabout. It learned! And that is not an isolated example of learning. I have had several. Truly amazing.

I have seen now indication FSD "learns" on the fly. In fact, I have instances where it started out handling things OK, then regressed. I started 12.3.6 with FSD finding and turning into both my home and work driveways. Then it just started overshooting them.

 

[tmruwart]

I have a LOT of problems with v12.3.6 and speed limit signs. On a well marked, new section of highway with a 55 mph speed limit, it will suddenly decide the speed limit is 30 mph, and slows accordingly. I also have problems in school zones. FSD sees the pavement marking, slows down, but then immediately speeds back again once it passes over the pavement markings. THAT NOT HOW SCHOOL ZONES WORK!! Also have problems with exit ramps (going to fast) and entrance ramps (going to slow).

Ditto.

 

[tmruwart]

I have seen now indication FSD "learns" on the fly. In fact, I have instances where it started out handling things OK, then regressed. I started 12.3.6 with FSD finding and turning into both my home and work driveways. Then it just started overshooting them.

My favorite Abby Normal behavior is when you arrive at your destination, hit End Trip (not Park) and wait about 2 seconds - FSD starts driving with no destination in mind.

 

[MikeFla]

Why does a car being "supervised" ever need to alter the speed that has been set by the driver?
A true "robotaxi" needs to manage speed. Supervised FSD does not, IMO.

 

[Tronguy]

Why does a car being "supervised" ever need to alter the speed that has been set by the driver?
A true "robotaxi" needs to manage speed. Supervised FSD does not, IMO.

In no particular order:

• One is on a 45 mph local road and is coming up on a town center. Speed limit signs go from 45 down to 40, then 35, then 25 as one goes through the center of town. On the other side the reverse is happening. Mapping data may have the speed limits present, but, often, the signs change around or the mapping data isn't accurate. As a convenience/not-get-a-ticket feature, the car will, generally, slow down and speed up with the signs.
• One is on a 75 mph road in Texas. (Been there, done that...) That's the speed limit in the Endless Boonies, but, as one might expect, hitting more heavily populated/congested areas results in reduced speed limits. Again, as a convenience/not-get-a-ticket feature, the car roughly follows the speed limit signs.

Towards that end, all versions of Autopilot/Autosteer/FSDS read speed limit signs and do some work to limit the car's speed. On FSDS, at least, recent versions do the following, again in no particular order:

• If one is on an interstate, buzzing along at the speed limit or some higher value, and runs across a Much Lower Limit for the construction coming up in a mile or more (Looking at you, New Jersey), nobody else slows from, say, 65 down to the (probably mandated) 45 mph new limit. This led to sudden braking (the NHTSA doesn't believe in gradual slow-downs and has attacked Tesla over this), which is dangerous. The most recent versions of FSDS apparently look at other autos on the road, flashes a message that the car is going to keep up with traffic, and generally does so, slowing gradually if it all, and highlighting the adjustable speed limit in blue. One can use the scroll wheel to lock in a higher or lower speed limit than what the car came up with, but the sudden slowdowns are gone.
• On local roads, the more-or-less V11 stack isn't used. Instead, one can either use this Auto Max function, where the car looks at other cars, past history, congestion, and what-all, and either slows below the limit, goes above the limit, or hangs around at the limit. In NJ and Texas it worked pretty well.
• On local roads, if one doesn't want the Auto Max, one can set in a offset above, below, or at the posted speed limit, and said offset can be a percentage or a fixed mph value.

On top of all of the above, there's the usual Traffic-Aware portion of it, which means that slower traffic in front of one slows the car down, too. And that part of it can't be turned off.

All of the above is clearly moving towards what Robotaxi will eventually need, if Robotaxi comes to fruition.

 

[thyname]

If the AI is as dubmfcuck as Tesla’s FSD’s one, we are all fcucked. Or blessed, depending on how you look at it. Keep your job and such

 

[Yelobird]

If the AI is as dubmfcuck as Tesla’s FSD’s one, we are all fcucked. Or blessed, depending on how you look at it. Keep your job and such

Drink much?

 

[tmruwart]

Drink much?

Or rather: "Dnirk mcuch¿"
The irony is that thyname seems to struggle with simple spelling.

 

[KArnold]

Why does a car being "supervised" ever need to alter the speed that has been set by the driver?

I doubt the LEO would mail the speeding ticket to Tesla. It's needed until Tesla takes responsibility for their actions, perhaps longer.

I'm looking for the day when Tesla puts their wallet up instead of simply tweeting how good it is.

 

[KelvinMace]

My favorite Abby Normal behavior is when you arrive at your destination, hit End Trip (not Park) and wait about 2 seconds - FSD starts driving with no destination in mind.

But, it seems to want to go somewhere, since it will initiate turns. I have been tempted to see where it takes me, but haven't had the time.

 

[thyname]

Or rather: "Dnirk mcuch¿"
The irony is that thyname seems to struggle with simple spelling.

You failed to notice I misspelled the curse words only. On purpose. And for obvious reasons (to me)

 

[JB47394]

But, it seems to want to go somewhere, since it will initiate turns. I have been tempted to see where it takes me, but haven't had the time.

It drives around, generally favoring going straight or taking rights. The decisions may be related to the structure of the road data.

 

[pobguy]

Same problem for me except worse because I was traveling US route 15! Repeatedly slowing down urgently to 15mph in speed zones which were as high as 55mph. Think I’ll try to stay away from US1 (which runs the entire eastern seaboard from Maine to Key West).

I've got you beat: Illinois state route 10. Speed limit is 55, FSD reads it as 10

 

[3sr+buyer]

The only consumer car in the US with eye-off, hands-off is Mercedes with Drive Pilot L3, which isn't on the roads yet, at least that I can see. I see lots of test videos, and demos from Mercedes employees to the media/influencers, but not seeing average John Doe videos in action.

At L3, the Mercedes-Benz Drive Pilot does not require constant supervision (like L2), but can require a human driver to take over at any time when it detects an upcoming situation beyond its ability (one example for this system is a construction zone).