Those numbers are getting very close where I live. (Though of course it depends on the prices of methane and electricity in your area.) I actually compared the retail prices in my area and replaced my natural gas dryer with an electric dryer; the gas wasn't cheaper to operate. Methane prices have been going straight up here -- largely to cover the cost of maintaining the pipes, I think -- and electricity prices have been staying flat.
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mknox
Well-Known Member
I'm a VP at an Ontario, Canada electric utility and, sadly, that is not the case here. I run my water heater on a timer only during off peak periods and it is still more expensive than a gas one would be. I replaced my electric dryer with gas and am seeing some real savings. The next to go is my electric range. Did I mention I'm an electric utility guy? :smile:
bareyb
Active Member
Being electric is what justified buying a car like this for us. Otherwise you're just another rich guy showing off. This way we get to have a super high end ride without looking like we are materialistic. 
mnx
2018 M3P
Far better service from Tesla than BMW here. Tesla drives ~50km with a truck and trailer and picks my car up so I don't have to take time off work to go to a dealership/service center.
With BMW I had to drive to the dealership and get a ride back home in the shuttle etc. It took a least an hour or more out of my day. As far as the work done on the car, Tesla is as good or better than my BMW experience...
bareyb
Active Member
Lexus service isn't what it used to be. At least not around here. The new models have taken a hit on quality compared to the same model ten years ago too. All that recall money had to come from somewhere. I've been a loyal Lexus guy for 14 years, but I've lost that lovin' feeling and I'm ready to move on.
Using electricity to heat things is stupid and inefficient.
Just like using chemical energy to move objects is stupid and inefficient...
Incredulocious
LEAF → RAV4EV → Model 3 → Model Y
Except that we can easily make electricity at home (photovoltaic). Not so easy to make propane or extract natural gas! Plus it's messy! :smile:
In fact, when I bought my new home two years ago, I switched from a gas dryer to electric, augmented the gas furnace with a heat pump and added solar panels. (The original owners had horrific propane and electric bills!) Now I'm thinking of replacing the gas water heater... hate having to buy and burn propane when I've still got excess solar-generated electricity! (I overbuilt in anticipation of going all-electric for driving but then cancelled my Model S order and sticking with my LEAF while waiting for something smaller than Model S.)
mknox
Well-Known Member
Why not cut out the middle-man and go with straight solar hot water? It's a lot more efficient than converting solar to electric and then back to heat.
So what is the takeaway here? If Audi/Lexus/BMW/Mercedes (pick your poison) were to get their act together and drop a high performing electric drivetrain and big battery in one of their rides (i.e. S7, 6 series GC, etc.) 85% of you would be shopping there instead? Actually, I think that is the exact scenario that Tesla probably fears the most. If the other auto companies of the world adopt a similar EV model (i.e. big battery, powerful, nice looks) AND have greater economies of scale, dealer presence, etc. will the bulk of buyers switch and shop there? Heck, does it even have to be comparable to a Model S? If it is just "close enough" will people take a chance with Tesla?
The big question is "how long?". How long before those other guys wake up and figure this formula out. The the now ubiquitous nature of hybrid availability in every third car line (Accords, Camrys, and Fusions, Oh My), and the sudden surge in plug-in hybrids would lead me to believe time is running out. Heck the new supercars from Ferrari, Mclaren and Acura and all hybrids and the dang Mclaren is actually a plug-in (come to think of it, the next gen Porsche Panamera hybrid is also a plug-in).
Soon no one will think twice about the drivetrain as so many will be either electric or predominantly electric...at that point the "electrics" will have to compete on all the other attributes of being a car (i.e. price, performance, utility, styling, etc.). Hopefully Tesla will fair well...the clock is ticking.
The big question is "how long?". How long before those other guys wake up and figure this formula out. The the now ubiquitous nature of hybrid availability in every third car line (Accords, Camrys, and Fusions, Oh My), and the sudden surge in plug-in hybrids would lead me to believe time is running out. Heck the new supercars from Ferrari, Mclaren and Acura and all hybrids and the dang Mclaren is actually a plug-in (come to think of it, the next gen Porsche Panamera hybrid is also a plug-in).
Soon no one will think twice about the drivetrain as so many will be either electric or predominantly electric...at that point the "electrics" will have to compete on all the other attributes of being a car (i.e. price, performance, utility, styling, etc.). Hopefully Tesla will fair well...the clock is ticking.
Nice first post... Let me guess. You work for a competitor?
LOL - No, but I am a car enthusiast! I knew as soon as I hit the "post reply" button I might get some flack as a first post...such is life on the interweb. I can say I don't own a Model S and thus didn't vote in the poll (keep in mind, it was the majority of the OWNERS who said you would not have bought the car had it not been electric which implies other car companies might steal sales if they get on this bandwagon). My previous car was an M5. My current car is a Chevy Volt (no one is more surprised at that than me). I'm ALWAYS on the hunt for my next ride and since the Volt has sort of spoiled me to the electric driving experience (87% of my 13K miles have been on battery) a 60kw Model S is on my radar as a possibility when my Volt lease is up in a couple more years. This thread caught my eye since (much like on the Volt forum) there are a million enthusiastic threads and comparatively few where folks express any form of (material) dissatisfaction.
Incorrect. If that happens, Tesla has accomplished its purpose.
The Secret Tesla Motors Master Plan (just between you and me) | Blog | Tesla Motors
If "the old guard" would get off their duff and deliver compelling EVs at attainable prices, Tesla wouldn't need to exist. That's not something they fear, but rather something they hope for.
Stockholders might not agree, of course.
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Welcome to the forums. Don't be shy, even if there are a few that jump quickly to conclusions.
Incorrect. If that happens, Tesla has accomplished its purpose.
The Secret Tesla Motors Master Plan (just between you and me) | Blog | Tesla Motors
If "the old guard" would get off their duff and deliver compelling EVs at attainable prices, Tesla wouldn't need to exist. That's not something they fear, but rather something they hope for.
Stockholders might not agree, of course.
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Welcome to the forums. Don't be shy, even if there are a few that jump quickly to conclusions.
You do wonder if Elon might caveat his comments from 7 years ago with a bit of a "Weeeelllllll, I'd like to add...." today. Then again, he generally seems to say whatever the heck he wants!
mknox
Well-Known Member
Really? They're quite popular here in Ontario (surprisingly, but we apparently do get good sun exposure). Also, just about everyone with a pool uses a similar system for pool heating.
Yeah -- we and RobertBoston have previously discussed the bizarre phenomenon where retail Ontario grid electricity is going up in price and retail New York grid electricity is flat in price, while retail Ontario methane is flat in price and retail New York methane is going up in price, simultaneously. It's interesting.
One of the things about the gas dryer is that it costs extra upfront -- at my prices for gas and electricity, that wiped out any potential operational savings. (This of course only applied when I had to replace the dryer anyway)
For hydronic house heating and domestic hot water heating, the same is *not* true, so those are still powered by methane (simultaneously, actually, since the water heater is indirect-fired by the hyrdonic house heating). I have been considering point-of-use electric hot water heaters, however; although the capital and operations costs are both higher, instant hot water (rather than wait-five-minutes hot water) is something worth paying for. Point-of-use gas hot water heaters exist, but are not even worth considering due to the trouble and danger involved in routing the gas pipes.
For the stove, gas cooking is qualitatively different from electric cooking, and I prefer gas cooking, so I'm kind of stuck with it regardless of price.
Economically, someone mentioned that they were using propane for their hot water heater. Propane is usually much more expensive than methane. Switching from propane to electricity is usually economically wise, while switching away from methane requires a bit more calculation.
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