Why has Tesla dumbed down the suspension tuning on a $100K sports sedan?

[Niclas]

^yeah, but I do not care about nurnburgring, I'm talkning about the daily driving experience.
And regarding to your P85D, thats a pre-april production right?
They dont produce those P85Ds anymore with the stiffer suspension. The post april PDs are much softer than P+

 

[MuppetOwl]

Yes my P85D is pre april. So I have the stiffer suspension and feels very similar to the P85+ on the road.

Was the cars you did test produced after april 30?

 

[3mp_kwh]

I'd offer to get together and A/B test, but the thread doesn't show many others near my Boston coil car. At most, I suspect I'd want to upgrade the sway bars. Otherwise, more seem disappointed with the early P85D's as every day touring cars, than eager to give up some ride comfort the majority of the time, for flatter handling the rest. My guess is this motivated the change, as much as any streamline cost effort did.

Functionally, I don't think Tesla needs to do what Audi/BMW/Mercedes/Porsche need to do, with roll and firmer damper options. Even a flat six (instructed in two of those) hasn't put as much weight as low, never mind between the axles, as a Tesla. All those brands have cars that knock on the door of 4,000lbs. So, I disagree with dismissing 4,700lb agility. That's relative, and we're not talking about autocrossing.

IMO, Tesla should at least put sway bar options in their online shop. Dumbing things down scares me, because I think at the end of the day "autopilot" becomes pedestrian, while there seems to be almost no focus on marketing the car's fundamentally better driving bones.

 

[Caligula]

Still would like to know if the OP drove an 85D with the all seasons or max performance summer tires.

 

[Whistle2Whine]

I've been wondering about this. Since I'm shopping CPO's anyway, P85+ is going to be my Goto precisely for similar reasons. I'm coming from previous modified cars, namely an Infiniti G37 and VW GTI, both of which were on aftermarket coilover suspensions with max performance summer tires. I've been impressed with the P85+ loaners I've been able to try. But I had, as a contingency, if I found the right P85, ordering the + suspension components. I haven't talked with a service advisor on that, but It might be worth looking into getting the part numbers for the air suspension, wheels and sway bars from the Pre-april P85D and talking with service about if they can be installed at an SC. They HAVE to have some for repair/replacement purposes, so I'd be curious to know how much of it just 'bolts-on'.

 

[marty2112]

I have the P85+ and I too agree with OP.
I have test driven the 85D, P85D and P90D and they all felt like boats compared to the P85+. And the steering feel is WAY better too on the +.
So, yes the PD have ceazy acceleration but the every-day drive is superior on the old P85+
So the new improved suspension is not to my liking, but the typical american driver likes a soft ride.

I have to disagree. After driving my P85, I continously regretted not getting the +. I was able to drive loaner +s several times and loved it. After driving the newer cars (P90D), my desire for the + went away. For me, the AWD and better build quality trumps the suspension advantages. The S is not a track car and should never try and compete with those weekend vehicles...

 

[calisnow]

Still would like to know if the OP drove an 85D with the all seasons or max performance summer tires.

Hi Caligula - unfortunately neither. I ordered my car based on rentals I could get on Relayrides - one week in a 2013 60 with air suspension and one week in a 2015 70 with coils - both single motor. I did test drive the P85D at a dealership. These comparisons are not really valid of course because they were apples to oranges - different wheel sizes, etc.

This uncertainty is of course one of of the reasons I'm going a little batty in the brain. If the option box was there for "+" suspension I would just check it - based off my experience owning both stock and tuned E36 M3's and a couple E39 540i's - one the base car and one the factory "sport" tune - which was a host of small changes similar to the Tesla "+" option.

5 or 10 seemingly small differences in bushings, tire choice, wheels, damping and spring rates, etc. can really add up to a lot more precise feel and thus driving pleasure.

On the other hand I'm a lot older than I used to be and probably will be glad to have a cushy air suspension sedan for cruising long distances. Leave the canyon carving for the true sports car.

Maybe my desire for the + suspension is more my ego talking than what will actually make me happy!

 

[Jool]

I would guess that the majority of Model S owners prefer a more comfortable ride instead of stiffer performance-oriented suspension. Most of my previous cars had aftermarket suspension with upgraded shocks/springs/bushings/etc but those upgrades would feel a bit out of place on my Tesla since it's so much larger and heavier. Something like the magnetic suspension from the Cadillac CTS-V would be amazing since you can switch it from cushy to sporty with the press of a button though!

 

[CHG-ON]

That's why I have no regrets with the +. My car was obsolete a month after buying it and I was pretty PO'd. But in the end, I am very happy with what I have. It really is exactly what I wanted. I love it and don't find it harsh at all. I like feeling really close to the road. I think the cornering is great for such a huge and heavy beast. I don't find the ride harsh. But that probably comes from my having such tight suspensions all my life. I love the RWD, bought it for that reason, and wouldn't change it. I have had AWD for so long that it was time for a change and I really enjoy it.

For me, the car is a great compromise between a boulevard cruising limo and taught, high speed GT cruiser. I think it's a shame that they discontinued it. And I totally agree with the comments about over-focusing on insane and ludicrous. Honestly, how often do any of us use that, aside from showing off to our friends? I did that for a month or two and got a lot of kicks out of doing it. Now I never launch. Half throttle has me 300 yards in front of anybody at a stop in 2 secs as it is. I just drive.

I'm sitting here, annoyed that I can't pay $6,500 to order a 2016 Model S with the suspension and staggered wheel options out of the P85+ or at least the firmer dampers of the early P85D.

Yet I could plonk down $10K to shave off a couple more tenths from a 0-60 time off a P85D which already offers world beating acceleration times.

What would be really nice would to be able to put the "+" suspension on a rear wheel drive 70 - giving you the lightest Tesla combined with the best suspension and most pure steering feel. No, not the fastest in a straight line but it would be the most pleasure to throw into a curve in the model line.

Tesla's current approach isn't a pursuit of balanced performance - cynically selling "Ludicrous mode" while simultaneously killing off the sport suspension options is an approach in line with the worst offenses of Mercedes' AMG division.

It smacks of Lamborghini's "Look at Me!" doors vs. Ferrari's heavenly handling. Oh wait. . .

I should know - I got suckered into buying an E55 AMG years ago after being floored by its acceleration on a test drive - momentarily forgetting everything years of BMW club driving schools had taught me about how handling and steering feel trumps everything else in terms of long term driving pleasure. I regretted the AMG purchase within a year and very much wished I'd never left the sublime handling of BMW's of the time.

Elon, being the perfectionist he is, can't feel good about dumbing down the suspension on a beautiful handling chassis. So why did he choose to do it? Did some bean counter or marketing dunce decide that Ludicrous sells cars, but highly tuned suspensions do not?

Imagine BMW degrading the legendary E39 chassis by telling customers they couldn't have the sport suspension (let alone the full M5 suspension) - but instead to make them happy there was a new turbo kit so they could race the local teens in the alley on Saturday night.

BMW wouldn't have done that (of course, the new BMW builds a lot of heavy garbage that the old one didn't, but that's another story).

So why did Elon? He and his engineers knew how to build the best handling Model S - they did it right out of the gate when the chassis was new.

I believe he is even on record recommending the staggered wheel setup he no longer sells. I guess you could argue there is no need for staggered wheels on an AWD car - but the initial P85D's had staggered 21's for some reason.

They offer all kinds of other options and build these cars to order - how hard can it be to stock a couple different dampers, bushings and stabilizer bars? The man in charge of the shop is landing rockets in the middle of the ocean.

The unicorns with Autopilot do show up on ev-cpo (there's one now for $82K) but I'd like a brand new one, not one 2 years old.

 

[aus]

OP, I get what you're saying, but you're the MINORITY in the Tesla buying world.
And in reality, how much better is the /M suspension or + suspension on regular roads? You really can't use either suspension to their full potential on regular roads.

I'm stating this as a life time member of the CCA who has done many track evens in my E92 M3 and a few in my wife's old E90 335 with a tune.
Our MS 85 with coils and stock 19's is plenty stiff IMO, particularly with the 40+ PSI recommended tire pressure and all season tires. I'm just going to let the tires slowly drop down to around 38psi and see how I like it there.
Then, when they're worn out, I'm getting some summer tires, likely PSS.
.

 

[AWDtsla]

OP, I get what you're saying, but you're the MINORITY in the Tesla buying world.
And in reality, how much better is the /M suspension or + suspension on regular roads? You really can't use either suspension to their full potential on regular roads.

I'm stating this as a life time member of the CCA who has done many track evens in my E92 M3 and a few in my wife's old E90 335 with a tune.
Our MS 85 with coils and stock 19's is plenty stiff IMO, particularly with the 40+ PSI recommended tire pressure and all season tires. I'm just going to let the tires slowly drop down to around 38psi and see how I like it there.
Then, when they're worn out, I'm getting some summer tires, likely PSS.
.

E92 M3 suspension with the active dampers was a dream. It didn't really give anything up to comfort due to the active damper programs even with (relatively) stiff springs.

It's all about the dampers. Everyone tries to upgrade springs because they don't know how dampers work.

edit - oh and I USED the s*** out of it on regular roads. One touch of the M button put the suspension in sport stiffness in something like 10 milliseconds. One of my most missed features in this upgrade. That and M stability control programs.

 

[HankLloydRight]

Just another vote for the + column. My two cars right now are my P85+ and an E39 M5. Love driving both cars and how they handle compared to other non+ cars and other non-M BMW sedans. I like the stiff suspension on both and really don't mind it on rough roads, for the trade-off on other more sport-friendly roads.

But when I drive my g/f's E92 3-series 335i twin-turbo convertible, it is a much more "civilized" ride. But I'm OK with that.

 

[gnelson]

I have to disagree. After driving my P85, I continously regretted not getting the +. I was able to drive loaner +s several times and loved it. After driving the newer cars (P90D), my desire for the + went away. For me, the AWD and better build quality trumps the suspension advantages. The S is not a track car and should never try and compete with those weekend vehicles...

I drove a P85D and was underwhelmed. I prefer my P85+. I don't have to listen to that whine from the front drive train, and I lose very little in acceleration. If I lived in snow country I would be much happier with a "D".

 

[Mike K]

E92 M3 suspension with the active dampers was a dream. It didn't really give anything up to comfort due to the active damper programs even with (relatively) stiff springs.

It's all about the dampers. Everyone tries to upgrade springs because they don't know how dampers work.

edit - oh and I USED the s*** out of it on regular roads. One touch of the M button put the suspension in sport stiffness in something like 10 milliseconds. One of my most missed features in this upgrade. That and M stability control programs.

I think the point he was trying to make was how much of that improved handling performance can you actually use on the the street since you can't take your car to it's limit generally ever.

For instance, I owned a 2006 M5 and then bought a 2010 M-Sport 535 which I proceeded to tune and put down something like 470hp from the crank. The M5 was the better car still, no doubt and on a road course it would have beat the 535 with little fuss however on the street neither car came close to approaching it's limits in terms of handling which meant that in the real world, the 535 could do 99% of what the M5 could because the M5 wasn't in a position to take advantage of it's better components. Couple that with the significantly better low end power of the twin turbo 535 and the 535 ended up being a better street car in almost every way.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

The P85+ suspension is amazing and makes the car handle like it weighs half. There is no better way to make a 4,600 lb car feel like a much smaller, nimbler and more maneuverable car than by giving it the + suspension bits. Unfortunately, I don't like where Tesla is going. The only practical difference between a P90DL and a 85D is acceleration. Seems like there should be more for the huge difference in price.

 

[thegruf]

The only practical difference between a P90DL and a 85D is acceleration. Seems like there should be more for the huge difference in price.

Not wrong.
I would have loved a P90DL but no way was I spending that money for just 0-40 performance.

Established auto manufacturers have got this formula better balanced with just enough extra toys/features to justify the hike in price.
I still rather suspect Tesla sales of P90DL are every bit their expectations.

One possibility for variable suspension is with the air suspension they could offer controllable damping.
Now that might be a good option, and not only that they could do it in a unique way on the 17inch display with a slider.
The really smart bit is they could geofence this, so you could "teach" it your preferred setup on a trip and then have it play it back to you thereafter.
This could be loads of fun.

Maybe I need to claim the IP for this one

 

[calisnow]

Just another vote for the + column. My two cars right now are my P85+ and an E39 M5.

You sir, have some damn good taste in vehicles. I raise my glass to you!

 

[HankLloydRight]

You sir, have some damn good taste in vehicles. I raise my glass to you!

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

...+ wasn't an option ....:crying:
staggered RE71Rs make a P pretty close to a + besides the tilt
I'll challenge anyone in a stock E92 M3 in autocross. P85 is a bit quicker + better balanced to put down power
How much do +'s lean compared to this pic? I only got to drive a + in mostly wet and couldn't get a feel of the stiffness difference.

can I put a + sway bar on a P without other minor changes? if anyone knows

 

[AWDtsla]

...+ wasn't an option ....:crying:
staggered RE71Rs make a P pretty close to a + besides the tilt
I'll challenge anyone in a stock E92 M3 in autocross. P85 is a bit quicker + better balanced to put down power
How much do +'s lean compared to this pic? I only got to drive a + in mostly wet and couldn't get a feel of the stiffness difference.


can I put a + sway bar on a P without other minor changes? if anyone knows

My E90 M3 ZCP was way superior to a P90D with summer 21's in handling dynamics, a little stickier rubber wasn't going to fix that, not even just stiffer dampers/coils without compromising ride comfort. Like I said those active dampers were nearly magic. Autocross is a slightly different beast though, the torque may win it alone, as long as traction control doesn't get in the way. But torque is not what an M3 is for, autocross is too slow for it.