WA Senate passes $100 annual electric car fee

[Robert.Boston]

Interesting -- the (Democrat) Speaker here in "Tax"achusetts has not only put out a new, balanced budget with no new or increased taxes, but also no new or increased fees. Money to the government is money to the government, regardless of what you label it.

 

[Krandon]

1) Can anyone tell me what happens to the 5.99% that the WA Legislature adds to my electricity bill?
2) Also, what's the Bill # going to be when it reaches the House?

--Here's a direct link to the Senate's Page for SB 5251: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/summary.aspx?bill=5251&year=2011
--And the Bill: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/billdocs/2011-12/Pdf/Bills/Senate%20Bills/5251-S2.pdf
--And the House Bill Analysis: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/billdocs/2011-12/Pdf/Bill%20Reports/House/5251-S2%20HBA%20TR%2012.pdf
(This last one provides stats/rationale)

 

[vfx]

GM speaks

http://www.thefutureiselectric.com/2012/03/washington-state-to-penalize-ev-owners-oppose-this-now/

 

[EVNow]

I put 8,000 miles on Leaf the first year. My Leaf replaced a 20 mpg car. So, I'd have used 400 gallons and paid about $130 in road tax.

If I had a Prius instead, I'd have used 160 gallons and paid $60 in gas taxes.

A "fair" tax should be based on actual miles travelled & the weight of the vehicle.

 

[Todd Burch]

Shouldn't ICE drivers be levied a war tax that EV drivers are exempt from?

 

[EVNow]

Shouldn't ICE drivers be levied a war tax that EV drivers are exempt from?

They do pay a war tax now. It is collected by Iran / Saudi Arabia though.

 

[Larry Chanin]

General Motors looking to slam the breaks on proposed Washington State electric car tax

It appears GM, manufacturers of the Chevrolet Volt, are in stern opposition to the states attempt to increase revenue. In response to the proposed legislation, GM Regional Director Howard Lenox, Jr. recently wrote a letter to Governor Gregoire stating the automakers stern opposition with GM sharing the view that this particular piece of legislation from the state would penalize drivers for owning an electric vehicle.

Interestingly, drivers of the Chevy Volt wouldn’t actually be subject to such a fee should the proposed legislation pass given that the vehicle is not strictly electric, but instead produces its electricity from the vehicle’s on-board gas-powered generator. Nevertheless it’s evident GM is looking to the future as it the American automaker is in the process of electrifying more of its fleet, and worries such restrictions would cast a negative light on the EV market that is still somewhat in its infancy.

Larry

 

[ckessel]

General Motors looking to slam the breaks on proposed Washington State electric car tax

Eventually, as EVs become common, they'll have to do something like EVNow suggested and switch away from the gas tax as a way of funding roadwork projects. Until that point, you'll get a lot of kicking and screaming from various groups about bandaid laws like this one.

 

[Larry Chanin]

Eventually, as EVs become common, they'll have to do something like EVNow suggested and switch away from the gas tax as a way of funding roadwork projects. Until that point, you'll get a lot of kicking and screaming from various groups about bandaid laws like this one.

Aren't taxes imbedded in our electric bills? It could be argued that when EV adoption is more widespread and it becomes an actual issue that a component of our electric bill could be allocated to fund roadway projects. Right now this EV tax is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Larry

 

[ckessel]

Aren't taxes imbedded in our electric bills? It could be argued that when EV adoption is more widespread and it becomes an actual issue that a component of our electric bill could be allocated to fund roadway projects. Right now this EV tax is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Pretty much everything has taxes, but they'd have to pass laws about how much to collect and how to allocated it. The gax tax is, typically, allocated specifically for road work. They'll really want to get away from an energy tax (gas or electricity) to a tax more directly on cars themselves, through licensing fees or some such. The per mile * weight is probably the fairest since it measures each person's actual impact on the roads, but it's probably not practical to implement.

 

[jerry33]

The per mile * weight is probably the fairest since it measures each person's actual impact on the roads, but it's probably not practical to implement.

The per-mile * weight isn't particularly fair the way it's implemented now. Cars and light trucks do about zero damage to the roads. It's large commercial trucks, frost heaves, and soil settling that do the damage. Right now cars and light trucks subsidize the heavy vehicles. (Which is why rail freight traffic is far less than it could be).

 

[Dave EV]

The per mile * weight is probably the fairest since it measures each person's actual impact on the roads, but it's probably not practical to implement.

More like mile * (weight^2). Practically, it should be as simple as checking your odometer once a year and reporting it. Biggest issue is if you do a lot of out-of-state driving...

 

[Doug_G]

The gax tax is, typically, allocated specifically for road work.

That's what they'd like you to think. There aren't many jurisdictions where it's actually true.

 

[Lloyd]

That's what they'd like you to think. There aren't many jurisdictions where it's actually true.

This is a good reference on the Federal Gas Tax. Look at your state to see how it spends it's additional tax.

 

[daniel]

We Americans pay less tax than the people of any other industrialized country, but we complain about them more. We demand services, then vote against the taxes to fund them. One party has made it a mantra to cry "No new taxes!" without regard to any of the realities of the economy that might make taxes necessary. Both parties are too intent on getting elected to care much about whether our schools, libraries, or health care are funded, or whether there are enough fire fighters or cops to provide basic protection. Our selfish refusal to pay taxes for the services we demand has steadily lowered our quality of life.

The WA sales tax exemption on EVs meant that I didn't have to pay about ten thousand dollars in sales tax, in a state whose major source of revenue is sales tax. If I now have to pay $100 a year EV tax, I'll still be so far ahead it's ridiculous. It would take a hundred years for the state to recover what they gave me.

It's true that it makes no sense to give something with one hand and take it away with the other. And it's true that a weight*miles tax makes more sense. But what makes the most sense is to eliminate all the loopholes and all the subsidies for all forms of energy and transportation. Take away the subsidies on gasoline (that would make EVs much more attractive). Pull out of the Middle East and let people pay the real cost of gas not subsidized by wars. That would end the flow of trillions from the nation's coffers, save thousands of lives, and really encourage people to drive EVs on American energy, while giving a boost to wind and solar as well.

But if the state legislature decides to tax me $100 a year on my Roadster, I'm not so petty or so selfish as to complain.

Taxes are the price we pay to live in a (semi) civilized country. Sure there is waste and corruption in government. There is waste and corruption in private business as well. Look at Enron. Look at the S&L takeover disaster. Look at the sub-prime debacle that caused the present economic mess. All those were private business. Anyone who thinks government is any worse than any other way of doing things has their head in the sand. Politicians and bureaucrats cheat and steal. Ordinary citizens cheat on their taxes. Businesses gouge their customers. It's just human nature. If your solution is to stop paying taxes we'll end up just like a third-world country where the super-rich live behind fences guarded by private armies, kidnapping is an everyday business, and drug wars leave civilians dead in the streets.

I proudly vote in favor of taxes for the services I want the government to provide. My EV pays no gas tax, so I'll support a tax on EVs. I'll advocate the kind of tax that I think makes the most sense, but I'll lobby FOR the good taxes, not against a less-than-ideal one.

Flame away!

 

[dmckinstry]

Amen Daniel!

Although, I think the real tax should be based on the product of annual mileage and vehicle weight. The Model S would be charged more than the Roadster, but that's fair.

 

[Larry Chanin]

We Americans pay less tax than the people of any other industrialized country, but we complain about them more. We demand services, then vote against the taxes to fund them. One party has made it a mantra to cry "No new taxes!" without regard to any of the realities of the economy that might make taxes necessary. Both parties are too intent on getting elected to care much about whether our schools, libraries, or health care are funded, or whether there are enough fire fighters or cops to provide basic protection. Our selfish refusal to pay taxes for the services we demand has steadily lowered our quality of life.

The WA sales tax exemption on EVs meant that I didn't have to pay about ten thousand dollars in sales tax, in a state whose major source of revenue is sales tax. If I now have to pay $100 a year EV tax, I'll still be so far ahead it's ridiculous. It would take a hundred years for the state to recover what they gave me.

It's true that it makes no sense to give something with one hand and take it away with the other. And it's true that a weight*miles tax makes more sense. But what makes the most sense is to eliminate all the loopholes and all the subsidies for all forms of energy and transportation. Take away the subsidies on gasoline (that would make EVs much more attractive). Pull out of the Middle East and let people pay the real cost of gas not subsidized by wars. That would end the flow of trillions from the nation's coffers, save thousands of lives, and really encourage people to drive EVs on American energy, while giving a boost to wind and solar as well.

But if the state legislature decides to tax me $100 a year on my Roadster, I'm not so petty or so selfish as to complain.

Taxes are the price we pay to live in a (semi) civilized country. Sure there is waste and corruption in government. There is waste and corruption in private business as well. Look at Enron. Look at the S&L takeover disaster. Look at the sub-prime debacle that caused the present economic mess. All those were private business. Anyone who thinks government is any worse than any other way of doing things has their head in the sand. Politicians and bureaucrats cheat and steal. Ordinary citizens cheat on their taxes. Businesses gouge their customers. It's just human nature. If your solution is to stop paying taxes we'll end up just like a third-world country where the super-rich live behind fences guarded by private armies, kidnapping is an everyday business, and drug wars leave civilians dead in the streets.

I proudly vote in favor of taxes for the services I want the government to provide. My EV pays no gas tax, so I'll support a tax on EVs. I'll advocate the kind of tax that I think makes the most sense, but I'll lobby FOR the good taxes, not against a less-than-ideal one.

Flame away!

Hi Daniel,

No flames here.:wink:

Thanks for putting things in perspective.

My initial concern centered on a possible trend toward early EV taxes that might inhibit EV adoption.

Larry

 

[dsm363]

Well spoken Daniel. Until there are no loopholes or subsidies, and until EVs reach a critical mass, I think exempting them is fine but there does need to be a more balanced approach in all states (and at the federal level) to pay for our roads and transportation systems.

 

[aviators99]

The right sort of tax for road construction and maintenance is USE tax, in the form of tolls. We have plenty of those in Florida, and will not be happy if something like this comes here. There aren't so many in Washington (although I was shocked at the amount of the tolls on the 520 bridge when they came into existence from $0). California also has very few tolls...

 

[dsm363]

Instead of mandating things for EVs that people don't want, I think mandating all cars use a common built in toll mechanism makes more sense. Something like EZtag but without the big sticker in your window. That would make things easier going from state to state when collecting tolls and funding roads.