Vampire Drain - normal losses ?

[Colby Boles]

After getting the car back from the shop to fix the air suspension problem, it is looking like the vampire losses are a bit better when the car is plugged in at home than when I leave it at a remote location with no charger. At home I am draining at a rate of about 130W continuously whereas it is about 240W at the remote location. This might be due to the use of the cellular modem instead of WiFi for polling at the remote location, or something else about the power strategy when plugged in. I look back in my log history and the plugged-in drain seems pretty consistent at about 130W (it starts a ~2.6kWh charging cycle every ~20hrs to top off the losses) both before and after the air suspension leak fix, so it doesn't look like air compressor was contributing to the problem significantly.

The car has always been in the "Energy Savings" mode when off, but I had "Always Connected" checked. I just turned that off now along with the Remote Access option which I presume also needs the cellular radio working when enabled. I'll see how much smaller the drain gets now, although I'm not sure how the logging will work. When I turn the car back on will teslalog.com pull historic data from the car or does it just sample the current car state? I will need to catch the RM before another charging cycle starts otherwise. Maybe I should just unplug the car to keep things simple.

 

[msnow]

After getting the car back from the shop to fix the air suspension problem, it is looking like the vampire losses are a bit better when the car is plugged in at home than when I leave it at a remote location with no charger. At home I am draining at a rate of about 130W continuously whereas it is about 240W at the remote location. This might be due to the use of the cellular modem instead of WiFi for polling at the remote location, or something else about the power strategy when plugged in. I look back in my log history and the plugged-in drain seems pretty consistent at about 130W (it starts a ~2.6kWh charging cycle every ~20hrs to top off the losses) both before and after the air suspension leak fix, so it doesn't look like air compressor was contributing to the problem significantly.

The car has always been in the "Energy Savings" mode when off, but I had "Always Connected" checked. I just turned that off now along with the Remote Access option which I presume also needs the cellular radio working when enabled. I'll see how much smaller the drain gets now, although I'm not sure how the logging will work. When I turn the car back on will teslalog.com pull historic data from the car or does it just sample the current car state? I will need to catch the RM before another charging cycle starts otherwise. Maybe I should just unplug the car to keep things simple.

It sounds like you said you turned remote access off? I don't think that's a good idea. Secondly couldn't your logging app be contributing to the vampire loss?

 

[Colby Boles]

It sounds like you said you turned remote access off? I don't think that's a good idea. Secondly couldn't your logging app be contributing to the vampire loss?

Yes. I'm trying to get to the bottom of what are IMHO very high losses. The car is in my garage so I am not very concerned about remote access for at least the duration of this test. Yes, the logging could be contributing, but like I said before, I only started logging because I was anecdotally noticing high losses and wanted to quantify them. I have everything shut off now connectivity-wise, I believe, so I can power the car up later and check the RM change to see how different the drain can be with these features turned off.

 

[msnow]

Yes. I'm trying to get to the bottom of what are IMHO very high losses. The car is in my garage so I am not very concerned about remote access for at least the duration of this test. Yes, the logging could be contributing, but like I said before, I only started logging because I was anecdotally noticing high losses and wanted to quantify them. I have everything shut off now connectivity-wise, I believe, so I can power the car up later and check the RM change to see how different the drain can be with these features turned off.

Understood. I've noticed some firmware versions are better with this than others.

 

[liuping]

Understood. I've noticed some firmware versions are better with this than others.

I noticed something strange last night when removing my phone charger (cigarette plug adapter) and USB memory stick prior to dropping my Model S off this morning for a console install.

Both the memory card and charging cable were quite warn, I'd almost say hot, to the touch. I though the cigarette plug and usb ports were powered down when the car is off. I did not get time to test it further and it's at service now so I'll have to wait until it get back to try some tests.

If some firmware versions (I have 2.28.19) cause the USB and cigarette ports to stay on, with enough power to make things plugged into them warm, that could add a lot to the vampire drain.

 

[msnow]

I noticed something strange last night when removing my phone charger (cigarette plug adapter) and USB memory stick prior to dropping my Model S off this morning for a console install.

Both the memory card and charging cable were quite warn, I'd almost say hot, to the touch. I though the cigarette plug and usb ports were powered down when the car is off. I did not get time to test it further and it's at service now so I'll have to wait until it get back to try some tests.

If some firmware versions (I have 2.28.19) cause the USB and cigarette ports to stay on, with enough power to make things plugged into them warm, that could add a lot to the vampire drain.

I have seen posts on this maybe from @BertL but what I remember is people have noticed more vampire loss with the USB stick in. It may be always on which would explain it being warm.

 

[PacManMX]

130W when connected to wifi vs 240W in remote locations (assuming because of LTE) seems a bit much. My phone (when charging) plus my router and wifi AP's COMBINED don't use close to 130W let alone 240W! I'll assume that some of the 130W is due to normal degradation over time. However, unless temperatures are very different between when you are at home vs remote, 110W just for LTE seems crazy! I'm also noticing significant vampire drain each day/night independent of power saving mode / always connected. Hope we can figure it out.

 

[BertL]

For @liuping and

I have seen posts on this maybe from @BertL but I what I remember is people have noticed more vampire loss with the USB stick in. It may be always on which would explain it being warm.

My numbers may be off a little bit as I'm replying off the top of my head instead of going back to my notes when I did this multi-day/multi-option test a few months ago, but on my S90D:

• Turning Energy Savings OFF with LTE Connection ON consumes about 7-8 miles of Rated Range per day (IMHO that is the worst combination in terms of "vampire loss" an owner can control)
• So-called "Phantom USB Playing" adds another 2-3 miles loss to that each day

...and yes, my USB stick is warm e.g. even when I enter my MS from it being parked over night, I believe because of the Phantom USB Playing problem. If you use very low profile USB sticks like the SanDisk Ultra Fit, it is even HOT to the touch, to the point you'll drop it if you touch the metal that was inside the USB port. Nothing has changed in this regard through many firmware releases since I started trying to understand this last Fall. As discussed in other threads, Tesla acknowledges this "Phantom Playing" problem, suggesting it will be resolved in a "future firmware release". I have that documented as such on a service invoice.

 

[Colby Boles]

130W when connected to wifi vs 240W in remote locations (assuming because of LTE) seems a bit much. My phone (when charging) plus my router and wifi AP's COMBINED don't use close to 130W let alone 240W! I'll assume that some of the 130W is due to normal degradation over time. However, unless temperatures are very different between when you are at home vs remote, 110W just for LTE seems crazy! I'm also noticing significant vampire drain each day/night independent of power saving mode / always connected. Hope we can figure it out.

I totally agree. I design low-power electronics and these power levels exceed that of many desktop computers at idle! An Apple A8X CPU/GPU has a TDP of 4.5W at full tilt... It seems like there has been some laziness in addressing power management because they have a 90kWh battery to hide behind where people might not notice a certain degree of losses, but these drains are getting to be pretty significant.

BTW, I haven't had any USB devices left plugged in for months now, so that's not the culprit in my case.

My "remote location" is Treasure Island - just a couple miles from San Francisco. Both climates are extremely moderate so I can't see there being a lot of charge loss from temperature variation.

 

[liuping]

I have seen posts on this maybe from @BertL but what I remember is people have noticed more vampire loss with the USB stick in. It may be always on which would explain it being warm.

Thanks. I don't remember reading that, though I have not been following vampire drain issues for a while now. I only listen to the USB music when on long trips where there is no cell coverage, so I'll just leave it out until I actually need it.

But what about the cigarette lighter adapter. I though that was definitely turned off when the car is off. I have this model charger: Amazon.com: SCOSCHE USBC242M 12 Watts per port (24W/4.8A total output) USB Car Charger- The FASTEST CHARGE RATE for Apple and Android Devices-Retail Packaging-Black: Car Electronics.

Both the charger and the the lighting cable plugged into it were warm when I removed them. the car had been off in my garage for several hours before that, so I don't think they were still warm from the drive home.

 

[msnow]

Thanks. I don't remember reading that, though I have not been following vampire drain issues for a while now. I only listen to the USB music when on long trips where there is no cell coverage, so I'll just leave it out until I actually need it.

But what about the cigarette lighter adapter. I though that was definitely turned off when the car is off. I have this model charger: Amazon.com: SCOSCHE USBC242M 12 Watts per port (24W/4.8A total output) USB Car Charger- The FASTEST CHARGE RATE for Apple and Android Devices-Retail Packaging-Black: Car Electronics.

Both the charger and the the lighting cable plugged into it were warm when I removed them. the car had been off in my garage for several hours before that, so I don't think they were still warm from the drive home.

I thought the cigarette lighter charger was off when the car was off too but now that you mention it I did use my Tesla tire inflator which uses the 12v lighter adapter and it worked even though the car was off. Just checked the manual and it says it's on if the IC and Touchscreen is on which tells me it's hot under those circumstances even if the car is off. This is from the Owners Manual:

"12V Power Socket

Your Model S has a power socket located on the front of the center console. Power is available whenever the instrument panel and touchscreen are on."

 

[liuping]

This is from the Owners Manual:

"12V Power Socket

Your Model S has a power socket located on the front of the center console. Power is available whenever the instrument panel and touchscreen are on."

Thanks for checking the manual. I should have thought of that myself...

It might be a bug then, since the instrument panel/touch screen should not have been on, at least not long enough to get that warm before I unplugged it.

I'm now on a new version after the service visit, so I might not be able to reproduce the issue.

 

[systemcrashed]

I totally agree. I design low-power electronics and these power levels exceed that of many desktop computers at idle! An Apple A8X CPU/GPU has a TDP of 4.5W at full tilt... It seems like there has been some laziness in addressing power management because they have a 90kWh battery to hide behind where people might not notice a certain degree of losses, but these drains are getting to be pretty significant.

BTW, I haven't had any USB devices left plugged in for months now, so that's not the culprit in my case.

My "remote location" is Treasure Island - just a couple miles from San Francisco. Both climates are extremely moderate so I can't see there being a lot of charge loss from temperature variation.

Ch CL if you have smart preconditioning enabled. I had turned it on and forgot, and it chewed through some KWs before I realized I had left it enabled.

 

[mknox]

My car is currently losing about 5% SOC per 24 hours. I noticed it would seem to drop whenever I parked for more than a few hours and started tracking this on a spreadsheet. For instance, I was staying at a friend's summer cottage for a few days and noted the SOC, date and time when I arrived and left. It doesn't seem to matter if I have Energy Savings and Always Connected On or Off either for some reason.

I'm wondering if I have a "bad" 12v and the car keeps having to top it off. No errors or warning on the screens, though.

I'm going to mention this at my next "Annual" inspection and see what they say.

 

[msnow]

My car is currently losing about 5% SOC per 24 hours. I noticed it would seem to drop whenever I parked for more than a few hours and started tracking this on a spreadsheet. For instance, I was staying at a friend's summer cottage for a few days and noted the SOC, date and time when I arrived and left. It doesn't seem to matter if I have Energy Savings and Always Connected On or Off either for some reason.

I'm wondering if I have a "bad" 12v and the car keeps having to top it off. No errors or warning on the screens, though.

I'm going to mention this at my next "Annual" inspection and see what they say.

I've noticed higher vampire loss since the last firmware update (2.30.33).

 

[BertL]

I'm still back on .19, but has everyone checked settings since your last update? Some of us can attest that some settings seem to change when some firmware has been updated in the past without rhyme nor reason. Specifically, Energy Savings is ON, right?

Also, now that my garage is getting over 80 during the day, I noticed my daily "vampire drain" seems to be higher... and perhaps more so on days when my MS is not plugged-in. My theory for that is my MS is occasionally cooling itself using the battery vs wall power as it will when plugged-in. Even in relatively temperate SoCal, I've caught my MS now at least twice running the fan and/or aircon in my garage in the heat of the day. That takes power (vampire drain?) from somewhere.

 

[msnow]

I'm still back on .19, but has everyone checked settings since your last update? Some of us can attest that some settings seem to change when some firmware has been updated in the past without rhyme nor reason. Specifically, Energy Savings is ON, right?

Also, now that my garage is getting over 80 during the day, I noticed my daily "vampire drain" seems to be higher... and perhaps more so on days when my MS is not plugged-in. My theory for that is my MS is occasionally cooling itself using the battery vs wall power as it will when plugged-in. Even in relatively temperate SoCal, I've caught my MS now at least twice running the fan and/or aircon in my garage in the heat of the day. That takes power (vampire drain?) from somewhere.

If your theory is correct then it would explain my vampire drain. Also very warm and not plugged in. I haven't rechecked my energy settings to see if they were reset but will.

 

[vandacca]

I have my Tesla set to begin charging at 1am (to avoid competing/overloading circuits and take advantage of lower rates). However, as soon as I plug it in, the vehicle's charging screen shows that I'm drawing anywhere between 5-7 Amps (out of 48A), but the battery is not being charged.

Therefore, I suspect that when the vehicle is plugged in, most systems run off the external charger rather than the internal battery.

 

[msnow]

I have my Tesla set to begin charging at 1am (to avoid competing/overloading circuits and take advantage of lower rates). However, as soon as I plug it in, the vehicle's charging screen shows that I'm drawing anywhere between 5-7 Amps (out of 48A), but the battery is not being charged.

Therefore, I suspect that when the vehicle is plugged in, most systems run off the external charger rather than the internal battery.

Wait, does it stay that way except when it's charging or is it a momentary thing?

 

[vandacca]

Wait, does it stay that way except when it's charging or is it a momentary thing?

Here is a scenario. I come home at 9pm and plug in my X. The charging screen starts at 0A and immediately ramps up to about 5 - 7Amps and stays that way for the length of time I sat in the car. If I turn down the climate control, it hovers around 5A. If I turn up the climate control, it goes to about 8A. It continues to draw power as long as I sit in the car.

I assume that once I leave, it continues to draw less than 5A to run the onboard systems. At 1am, it begins to charge and draws the full 48A.