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U.S. Right-Wing Conservatives Attitudes Towards Tesla?

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The problem with your comment (other than the fact that it's a personal attack on me) is that Tesla is a for profit corporation, and a public one at that. Had Musk truly had something other than profit as his motivation he would have made the company a non-profit with a purpose as you state. Furthermore, Musk didn't "create" Tesla Motors. The company was founded by two individuals who are not named Elon Musk. Musk came in later as an investor.

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Like my signature line says...

My comment is to you and anyone else that thinks that way. You bought a product that reduces CO2 in the air which helps the environment. So you indirectly helped deal with climate change, so thank you. The company and climate change are interconnected.

I know he didnt create it on his own, i was stating it in a general sense.
 
I am what you would probably call a right wing conservative (I think the "right wing" part is meant to create some sort of preconceived notion, but such is the state of discourse these days). I only speak for myself, a two-time Tesla owner (P85 and P85D), but my issue with Tesla, and think this is true of many other conservatives, has to do with the politics behind the type of energy Tesla vehicles use. I.e., we have problems with the zealotry of certain global warming/climate change/whatever-it's-called-today activism.

In other words, Tesla is seen as part of this attempt to use global warming to grab ever increasing levels of power (political and regulatory, not energy power) to advance left wing political agendas.

Take a look through this forum and you'll see how many people conflate Tesla with the global warming agenda...and that explains why many conservatives have issues with Tesla.
I'm conservative as heck yet I'm totally behind conservation and glob warming is indisputably caused by humans. Green is not left wing or right wing, it is human wing. I hate when science deniers give conservatism a bad name on this topic.
 
Because it's a general statement. Do you understand the difference between general and personal?

Yes. Your first sentence was not personal. The second one was. (Did you know the definition of 'condescending' means 'to talk down to'? :))

Most people here were the smartest one in their class. How about instead of trying to insult people, you just discuss things without being defensive?
 
Because it's a general statement. Do you understand the difference between general and personal?

Of course it's not a personal attack. Although it's certainly a deliberately provocative statement where you declare that you 100% know that supporters of anthropogenic climate change are ignorant (don't understand science), mentally weak (afraid of challenge), and brainwashed (religious zealot).

Plus, as you are quite aware, your statement has nothing that supports the argument that climate change is not anthropogenic. Frankly, the scientific arguments that overwhelmingly support the existence of climate change and that it is anthropogenic can't really be adequately summarized in a forum post.
 
My comment is to you and anyone else that thinks that way. You bought a product that reduces CO2 in the air which helps the environment. So you indirectly helped deal with climate change, so thank you. The company and climate change are interconnected.

I know he didnt create it on his own, i was stating it in a general sense.

Yet you can't refute my point. The original claim I addressed was that Musk founded Tesla (which he didn't) solely for purposes that are environment related (paraphrasing). Yet the company is a for profit, publicly traded corporation and by law it has to focus on maximizing financial value for shareholders, not improving the environment. Maybe if the shareholders approve the conversion to a non-profit, or a B corp, and Musk devotes his personal wealth irrevocably to benefiting the environment (and shuts down his anti-environmental rocket company), I'll believe that Tesla is committed to the lofty and altruistic goals that some attribute to Musk.

And that goes back to my answer to the question of why some conservatives have a negative attitude towards Tesla. The messianic political power grab that is advocated by many who support the company turn a lot of us off. Personally, I am pretty sure that Musk is just another capitalist who is trying to produce an interesting product while making a ton of money (and using the government to further those goals). I have no problem at all with any of that. My problem is with those who don the Tesla cape to try to push a political agenda that is anathema to conservative principles of a small federal government with narrowly drawn enumerated powers.

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Yes. Your first sentence was not personal. The second one was. (Did you know the definition of 'condescending' means 'to talk down to'? :))

Most people here were the smartest one in their class. How about instead of trying to insult people, you just discuss things without being defensive?

Maybe you didn't notice that I was the one who was discussing the answer to the original question posed, which was "why do some conservatives have a negative view of Tesla?" Others launched into personal attacks on me and sidetracked the discussion. So if there's anyone who insulted people and got defensive, it was the person(s) who derailed the conversation to attack me for my signature line.
 
Maybe you didn't notice that I was the one who was discussing the answer to the original question posed, which was "why do some conservatives have a negative view of Tesla?" Others launched into personal attacks on me and sidetracked the discussion. So if there's anyone who insulted people and got defensive, it was the person(s) who derailed the conversation to attack me for my signature line.

You're right, I didn't notice that. I did notice people taking exception to your 'in your face' signature and commenting upon it. Own it, quit playing the victim all of a sudden.
 
Wrong!

Corporations Dont Have to Maximize Profits - NYTimes.com

PS. Can signature lines be moved to the snippiness thread?

Funny that you would link to that article, as I participated in the case that is discussed there and the quote relates to a passage in the opinion that Justice Alito based on the analysis presented in my brief. There is a difference between a closely held (i.e., non-public) corporation whose owners all agree on a corporate purpose other than profit, like Hobby Lobby, and a public company like Tesla. It's true that some corporations don't have to "maximize profits", which is why I noted that Tesla is a for profit, publicly traded corporation. Even a for profit corporation that is not publicly traded has to be run to maximize shareholder value if that is what some of the shareholders demand (see Ebay v. Newmark).
 
Wrong!

Corporations Dont Have to Maximize Profits - NYTimes.com

PS. Can signature lines be moved to the snippiness thread?

I was going to write about that. The job of the directors is to do what shareholders want. I'd argue that far from wanting Tesla to make that money run like honey from your tongue, they either really want Tesla to succeed in its stated mission and then deliver profit in a very non-douchebaggy way, or they want it to go down in flames right this instant (assuming you treat shorts as shareholders). Tesla has a mission statement.that's very clear on what kinds of vehicles to make, and very silent on profits.

As to the point of the thread, core conservative values say nothing specifically about electric cars, so they'll hold different opinions on them and Tesla. Similarly liberalism says nothing about electric cars, so it's a matter of view on the relative benefits.
 
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Yet you can't refute my point. The original claim I addressed was that Musk founded Tesla (which he didn't) solely for purposes that are environment related (paraphrasing). Yet the company is a for profit, publicly traded corporation and by law it has to focus on maximizing financial value for shareholders, not improving the environment. Maybe if the shareholders approve the conversion to a non-profit, or a B corp, and Musk devotes his personal wealth irrevocably to benefiting the environment (and shuts down his anti-environmental rocket company), I'll believe that Tesla is committed to the lofty and altruistic goals that some attribute to Musk.

And that goes back to my answer to the question of why some conservatives have a negative attitude towards Tesla. The messianic political power grab that is advocated by many who support the company turn a lot of us off. Personally, I am pretty sure that Musk is just another capitalist who is trying to produce an interesting product while making a ton of money (and using the government to further those goals). I have no problem at all with any of that. My problem is with those who don the Tesla cape to try to push a political agenda that is anathema to conservative principles of a small federal government with narrowly drawn enumerated powers.

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Wow. You are really playing the semantics card here and have created some type of distorted negative view. The company has always been to transform from gas spewing CO2 cars to sustainable transportation. You seem fixated on this view and can't see what's actually going on, so I will just let you be.
 
Funny that you would link to that article, as I participated in the case that is discussed there and the quote relates to a passage in the opinion that Justice Alito based on the analysis presented in my brief. There is a difference between a closely held (i.e., non-public) corporation whose owners all agree on a corporate purpose other than profit, like Hobby Lobby, and a public company like Tesla. It's true that some corporations don't have to "maximize profits", which is why I noted that Tesla is a for profit, publicly traded corporation. Even a for profit corporation that is not publicly traded has to be run to maximize shareholder value if that is what some of the shareholders demand (see Ebay v. Newmark).

There is so much wrong with your reply I don't know where to start but I'll try to keep it short. While the Hobby Lobby decision relates to closely held corporations, it applies to publicly traded corporations as well. The Supreme Court, however, made the point that:

"HHS has not pointed to any example of a publicly traded corporation asserting RFRA rights, and numerous practical restraints would likely prevent that from occurring. HHS has also provided no evidence that the purported problem of determining the sincerity of an asserted religious belief moved Congress to exclude for-profit corporations from RFRA's protection. That disputes among the owners of corporations might arise is not a problem unique to this context. State corporate law provides a ready means for resolving any conflicts by, for example, dictating how a corporation can establish its governing structure. Courts will turn to that structure and the underlying state law in resolving disputes."

You must understand what this means if you "participated in the case" (whatever that means). And Samuel Alito even quoted you in his decision! :rolleyes:

Anyway, so that others understand, what the Court is saying is that the States govern this issue. But perhaps more importantly, it's difficult to image any large publicly traded company having shareholders sharing one belief, such as in the Hobby Lobby case.

So now we must go back to what State legislation says. We can't go through all 50, so I'll again refer you again to Lynn Stout, the distinguished professor of corporate and business law at Cornell Law School in her NYT's article (sorry but I like her credentials over your Alito credentials) :

"State codes (including that of Delaware, the preeminent state for corporate law) similarly allow corporations to be formed for "any lawful business or purpose,” and the corporate charters of big public firms typically also define company purpose in these broad terms. And corporate case law describes directors as fiduciaries who owe duties not only to shareholders but also to the corporate entity itself, and instructs directors to use their powers in “the best interests of the company.” "

What is in the "best interests of the company"? You said this:

"by law it has to focus on maximizing financial value for shareholders" <- these are your words that I said are WRONG!

The reason you are wrong is because you fail to understand the "Business Judgement Rule". That rule is used in determining the best interests of the company. You must say they are "maximizing profits"? Right. Well, if you do understand this rule, and that is your answer (i.e. maximizing profits) then please explain how the 2011 case of Air Products, Inc v. Airgas, used the business judgement rule to allow Airgas directors to refuse to sell the company, even though a sale would have given Airgas' shareholders a hefty profit?

I await your reply.
 
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Funny that you would link to that article, as I participated in the case that is discussed there and the quote relates to a passage in the opinion that Justice Alito based on the analysis presented in my brief. There is a difference between a closely held (i.e., non-public) corporation whose owners all agree on a corporate purpose other than profit, like Hobby Lobby, and a public company like Tesla. It's true that some corporations don't have to "maximize profits", which is why I noted that Tesla is a for profit, publicly traded corporation. Even a for profit corporation that is not publicly traded has to be run to maximize shareholder value if that is what some of the shareholders demand (see Ebay v. Newmark).

That case you reference seems to be more about deliberate actions taken by the majority against the minority, rather than specifically saying that they must act in the interest of a particular shareholder against the wishes of the majority of shareholders. In the case of Craigslist, the majority shareholders were of a _non-profit_"mentality, which was clearly against the interests of ebay, but that's the opposite end of a long spectrum from maximizing profit.
 
So, a request - perhaps this thread can be split, with the argument over climate change being relegated to the 256-page echo chamber thread on the same topic (Climate Change / Global Warming Discussion) and the remainder moving to the politics quarantine thread (Politics - Quarantine Thread)? There's nothing good that will come from this thread.

Note: conservative vs. liberal is an over-generalization in itself. You can be "fiscally conservative" while being "socially liberal". Unfortunately, anyone who buys into labels is just promulgating the problem.