SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
That is not what I said, and it is MY point:
US CEOs brazenly lie. Elon stands out as an exception but he is not American
Japanese CEOs simply don't talk about whatever they find importune.
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Toyota chairman Takeshi Uchiyamada remains amazingly ignorant of what Tesla has accomplished
- Thread starter ecarfan
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- Electric Vehicles
US CEOs brazenly lie. Elon stands out as an exception but he is not American
Japanese CEOs simply don't talk about whatever they find importune.
I thought it was the standard pattern that the "disruptor becomes the complacent incumbent". The unusual case is the company that continually reinvents itself and stays profitable while doing so.
mmd
Active Member
I see that you are new here! You need to drive in the civilized (oops I mean "green") world of California to see the problem
But you can read this recent thread till that time: See post #13 on 4 hour wait.For the same eclipse rush, some ICE cars waited 10-30 mins to fill up and that was a big news splash! Isn't 30 minutes the minimum supercharger halt? You can see that 10-30 minutes waiting is way abnormal for most people; that's why it became national news.
15 cars in line, 2 hour wait
Or this: Superchargers super-slow
Or this: Superchargers super slow when shared? | Teslaharry post #3 said:
Or this: charging slow at Superchargers
Or this diesel powered super charger just for your usual memorial day travel
How is it better than PHEV?Tesla And Its Customers Find It's Not Easy Being Green - DailyKanban
But then again, if you are the type who likes a 60 minute meal every 3 hours while on long road trips, then you may like a 4 hour meal even more
You will just have to leave your chauffeur in the waiting line to move the car forward every once in a while till it is plugged in. But as I said, these won't fly with the masses.
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SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
How about some perspective ?
98% of cars sold get MPG in the 20s combined.
Toyota sells a car for ~ $27k that, depending on use, gets MPG in the 100 - 300 mpg range.
So while people here consider BEV the pinnacle that Toyota has yet to ascend, they are leagues ahead of every car company but Tesla.
98% of cars sold get MPG in the 20s combined.
Toyota sells a car for ~ $27k that, depending on use, gets MPG in the 100 - 300 mpg range.
So while people here consider BEV the pinnacle that Toyota has yet to ascend, they are leagues ahead of every car company but Tesla.
um, what? Elon is a typical lying US CEO. He'll promise you the sky tomorrow if you only give him some money today. Just like the rest of them.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Because the masses drive cross state to eclipses all the timeI see that you are new here! You need to drive in the civilized world of California to see the problem
Fro the same eclipse rush, ICE cars waited 10-30 mins to fill up and that was a big news splash! Isn't 30 minutes the minimum supercharger halt? You can see that 10-30 minutes waiting is way abnormal for most people; that's why it became national news.
15 cars in line, 2 hour wait
Or this: Superchargers super-slow
Or this: Superchargers super slow when shared? | Tesla
Or this: charging slow at Superchargers
But then again, if you are the type who likes a 60 minute meal every 3 hours while on long road trips, then you may like a 4 hour meal even more
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Elon will often be wildly optimistic about time lines.
Try to not confuse that with lies.
First they laugh at you.
Then they ignore you.
Then they fight you.
Then you win.
It seems that Uchiyamada is still on step two, whilst Big Oil and other car makers have moved on to step three.
A recent Electrek article on the current Toyota position pointed out that there isn't really a step two.
Company statements feigning ignorance mask lobbying and delaying tactics.
In reality there is only steps three and four.
Then they ignore you.
Then they fight you.
Then you win.
It seems that Uchiyamada is still on step two, whilst Big Oil and other car makers have moved on to step three.
A recent Electrek article on the current Toyota position pointed out that there isn't really a step two.
Company statements feigning ignorance mask lobbying and delaying tactics.
In reality there is only steps three and four.
EAP is "finishing validation" in October 2016 when probably nothing was even written other than some high level designs (oh, I forgot they use some sort of agile thing, probably not even that, they just had a standup, I guess), let alone "finishing validation".
The battery capacity debacle in 85, 90 packs.
The horsepower debacle
the "Tesla does not do discounts"
the "solar roof will be cheaper than conventional roof BEFORE counting the energy generated"
the "silky smooth"
AP1 "will meet you at the curb" or however that one was worded
some sort of a "model3 is not better than model S" should be in this list too I guess
There are probably many more and these are just recent ones, I don't feel like going all the way back to other companies he's been part of to see what else did he lie about.
Yeah, we seem to be getting more and more of these rare events
Unlocking extra range on 60/75 vehicles for the Florida evacuation was an interesting move, but there will always be a need for more Superchargers.
Can a Supercharger site be made storm-proof? Photovoltaic canopies would need to be strengthened and the charger and battery backup units would need to be made watertight.
brucet999
Active Member
Thanks for posting the link. Can you also explain what it means? That graphic is totally incomprehensible to me, with things labeled C S and R with no indication of what they are or what they do. I assume the MG things are motor generators, connected to a mysterious S thing, whatever that is. The Rs seem to be connected to a ground, so they may have something to do with electricity?
I believe C = carrier. S = sun (gear) and R = ring (gear). Yes, MG are motor/generators.
This is in reference to planetary gearsets: How Automatic Transmissions Work.
Back when I was more of a Prius enthusiast, I'd play with the sliders in the Adobe Flash (ugh) animation at Toyota Prius - Power Split Device. Mouse over the various parts.
mspohr
Well-Known Member
100-300 MPG going downhill with a tailwind.
Real world 50 mpg
I had a Fiat 500 which got 42 mpg. Toyota has nothing special.
Saying there's still room for improvement when it comes to BEVs is fine. Betting on FCEVs while saying it, is the height of stupidity. BEVs are vastly superior, and are getting better faster than FCEVs.
I drove close to 800 miles this weekend, with about 500 of those using superchargers. I spent about 20 hours in my car. The superchargers worked almost flawlessly. There was one supercharger where I was expecting 100-110 kW and only got 70 kW, but I only needed to charge for ~5 minutes anyway for some extra margin. If I'd needed more energy, I would have moved to a different supercharger.
There was no queuing, and we probably spent under an hour actually waiting for the car to charge, divided on ~5 stops. Most of the time spent charging went to go to the restroom and getting some fresh air, and most of the time actually spent waiting would have been avoided if the parking garage where I needed to park had had charging.
And the infrastructure is still in it's infancy. A 20 stall supercharger is going up 15 miles away, another 20 stall supercharger is going up 40 miles away and a 40 stall supercharger is going up 75 miles away. These superchargers should provide ample capacity well into the Model 3 launch.
Just to put the expected charging difficulties a bit into perspective - close to 50% of cars sold in Norway now have a plug. Most likely, 90+% of car owners in Norway can easily get charging where they park for the night.
Edit: Oh yeah, and would the trip have been even remotely possible using a FCEV? Hell no. I'd end up stranded around 200 miles from the nearest hydrogen fueling station. Also, I spent ~10 USD on fuel. Hydrogen would have been ~138 USD and diesel would have been ~101 USD.
I drove close to 800 miles this weekend, with about 500 of those using superchargers. I spent about 20 hours in my car. The superchargers worked almost flawlessly. There was one supercharger where I was expecting 100-110 kW and only got 70 kW, but I only needed to charge for ~5 minutes anyway for some extra margin. If I'd needed more energy, I would have moved to a different supercharger.
There was no queuing, and we probably spent under an hour actually waiting for the car to charge, divided on ~5 stops. Most of the time spent charging went to go to the restroom and getting some fresh air, and most of the time actually spent waiting would have been avoided if the parking garage where I needed to park had had charging.
And the infrastructure is still in it's infancy. A 20 stall supercharger is going up 15 miles away, another 20 stall supercharger is going up 40 miles away and a 40 stall supercharger is going up 75 miles away. These superchargers should provide ample capacity well into the Model 3 launch.
Just to put the expected charging difficulties a bit into perspective - close to 50% of cars sold in Norway now have a plug. Most likely, 90+% of car owners in Norway can easily get charging where they park for the night.
Edit: Oh yeah, and would the trip have been even remotely possible using a FCEV? Hell no. I'd end up stranded around 200 miles from the nearest hydrogen fueling station. Also, I spent ~10 USD on fuel. Hydrogen would have been ~138 USD and diesel would have been ~101 USD.
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SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
mspohr
Well-Known Member
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Yes, I know. I own the car and drive it to work.
90 mile commute, lifetime MPG 110.
Do the math for a more average 30-40 mile commute between charges.
mmd
Active Member
I'm glad that Norway and Tesla have invested so heavily in EV infrastructure in Norway. Your low cost is an artifact of Norway government 's policy to burden the ICE drivers with road tolls and gas taxes to fund road costs and who knows what else, while throwing in all sorts of freebies for electric cars. This temporary advantage doesn't correctly reflect the true technological advantages.
Certainly your comparison with FCEV road trip time has nothing to do with the EV-oriented policies of Norway, right?
Here is another data point: a race between a Toyota Mirai and a Tesla Model X that Edmunds conducted. A trip from Santa Monica to Lake Tahoe. Guess which one wins when Tesla starts with a full charge and the Mirai has to take a 90 mile longer route because of sparse H2 network?
Hydrogen Highway vs. Tesla Supercharger Network - 2016 Toyota Mirai Long-Term Road Test
Hydrogen vs. Electricity Road Trip to Lake Tahoe - 2016 Toyota Mirai Long-Term Road Test
Close Finish in Hydrogen vs. Battery Contest- 2016 Toyota Mirai Long-Term Road Test
Edmunds Sep 30 2016 said:
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The cost for electricity is about 50% taxes, the cost for diesel is like 75% taxes. Sure, that's a difference, but then again, the diesel is taxed more for being polluting. That will likely never change, just like vodka has more alcohol taxes than water.
The comparison with the cost of hydrogen is fair, though. Hydrogen has no taxes, beyond the electricity taxes, and it's priced at the long-term goal where they hope hydrogen sales can support the cost of the infrastructure. (Compensating for current subsidies for hydrogen would add around 500 USD to the trip. Superchargers are unsubsidized, of course.)
These races are pretty pointless. It's irrelevant whether you can get somewhere faster. Probably more than 90% of people take breaks for going to the bathroom and eating.
What matters for people is how convenient the fuel is, and Hydrogen simply isn't convenient. There are hardly any fueling stations, hydrogen is expensive, and if you arrive at a fueling station at the same time as 5 other FCEVs, you're SOL. You'll be waiting more than an hour.
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