The deal breaker...

[malcolm]

If Model S doesn't support AC-3-phase with at least 32A - i will cancel my order.

Hopefully with the European launch coming 6 months behind the US there will be time to sort this?

The PEM sits next to the motor - does this house the charger? (given that it charges the battery via regen)

So my question is; would a new/different 3 phase charger be "simply" a matter of a PEM swap?

ETA: Are most of the necessary electronics already in place on the Roadster (see below)? I know Tesla don't have time to upgrade the Roadster but is 3-phase charging possible for model S?

http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster/technology/power-electronics-module

Under the PEM Cover
Inside the Power Electronics Module, there are three major systems – power stages, a controller, and a line filter. The most complex is the power stages, called Megapoles. The Megapoles are large semiconductor switch arrays that connect the charge port or motor to the battery depending on if the car is charging or driving.
Within the Megapoles, there are six different switches, grouped into three pairs known as half bridges. In drive mode, each bridge forms a phase. Each phase connects to a phase of the 3-phase AC induction motor. In charge mode, only two bridges are required, one for each wire in the AC line.

 

[mnx]

If it doesn't beat the tar out of my bmw 335d in every way (except driving range, hard to beat 1000+ km on the highway) then I might reconsider. (I don't see this happening though).

If the Canadian pricing is a lot higher than the US pricing I might re-consider as well.


However, it looks to be an awesome car, can't wait!

 

[kgb]

Deal breaker for me has nothing to do with the Model S. If another car manufacturer comes out with a better electric car that makes more sense to me, then I will get that instead. Right now, there is no competition. Tesla has a monopoly. I don't consider the Leaf to be in the same league. I don't consider the Fisker or Volt to be electric enough. So, Tesla is up against the clock... they have to get their luxury sedan to market before anyone else, or else they lose the sale. That said... while I've been waiting, I've been thinking about not only getting a Model S for me, but my wife and I might get one as our "second" (wife's) car too. I might also get one for work (I need to shuttle people around for work, I would like to replace our Dodge Caravan with a Model S).

... So, Tesla Motors, stay on schedule!

 

[vfx]

I agree. Just saw the Model S in Seattle. The size is the biggest negative. I would prefer something slightly less huge.

Yeah, way too big.

Though of late been considering it to replace the SUV. Will need to see carrying capacity specs for real.

 

[richkae]

A massive oversimplification: it seems the Model S is trying to straddle 2 markets:
1) EV nuts who can afford a nice car but would actually prefer smaller
2) luxury sedan snobs who like em big
It it easier to make someone like me ( category 1 ) accept a bigger car than make someone in category 2 accept a smaller car? Probably.

I intend the Model S to be my primary family car for everything, including driving trips.
They have no competition in this regard. The Leaf ( range too short ),Fisker ( only seats 4, space way too limited ) and Volt ( only seats 4, space limited ) can not even be compared.

If something happens to make me not buy the Model S, I will stick with my ( ugh ) Prius until somebody else offers something competitive.

 

[TEG]

...The Leaf ( range too short )...

If they manage to get CHAdeMO quick chargers positioned all over then the range becomes somewhat of a non-issue. At some point for long trips, the charging speed (and locations of chargers) becomes more important than battery capacity. Making a 500 mile trip with 5 half hour stops would be preferable to one 5+ hour stop in the middle. (Although Tesla keeps mentioning the possibility of pack swaps for such trips, but will there be a pack swap station where you need it?)
The next decade's "beta vs VHS" may end up being quick charge versus pack swap.

As much as I like all the tech and thought that has gone into Model S, I already decided against it just based on the size.

 

[Jaff]

Not sure I understand the whole size argument...to me, 3" longer than a 5 series BMW is not a huge vehicle, it's splitting hairs...but, to each his own.

It does sound like some of you would prefer a redesigned Roadster with 2 + 2 seating (which I would assume would be smaller than a Model S)...perhaps in another year or so, TM will manufacture a car like this...

 

[Doug_G]

If they manage to get CHAdeMO quick chargers positioned all over then the range becomes somewhat of a non-issue.

Really? I'd prefer not to have to stop and charge 3X just to get to Toronto. Talk about turning a 4 hour drive into an all-day marathon. I think 200 actual miles is the lower limit for a road trip.

 

[tdelta1000]

wow...there is a wide range of things that could potentially cause poeple to walk away from the Model S.

I think "kgb" brought up an interesting point be saying if another manfacturer comes out with something better. I do not see that happening because TM does have that "monopoly" for the time being.

After reading some of the posts, the one thing that has not been mentioned is the word "service". What will be the TM "service" model for the Model S and going forward??? This could have great implications if TM does not get the "service" right.

 

[TEG]

Really? I'd prefer not to have to stop and charge 3X just to get to Toronto. Talk about turning a 4 hour drive into an all-day marathon. I think 200 actual miles is the lower limit for a road trip.

Yes, if you have a 300 mile pack and do a lot of 200 mile trips you will be glad you don't have a Leaf.
But if you had a 300 mile car with only L2+ AC charging, and you were racing 500+ miles in a day against a Leaf with CHAdeMO along the way you would get there quicker in the Leaf. It really depends on the logistics of the trip. My point was that max available charging rate becomes very important on longer trips. A bunch of quick DC chargers could end up being preferable than fewer, longer, slower rate charges. Some of it comes down to patience too. I can stop for 1/2 hour and find something to do, but being stuck for 4+ hours somewhere starts to seem like an eternity.

 

[clea]

well they are giving us a chance to give direct input on some of these questions ...

Upcoming QA with Chief Designer Franz von Holzhausen - submit your questions! | Forums | Tesla Motors

 

[Doug_G]

Yes, if you have a 300 mile pack and do a lot of 200 mile trips you will be glad you don't have a Leaf.
But if you had a 300 mile car with only L2+ AC charging, and you were racing 500+ miles in a day against a Leaf with CHAdeMO along the way you would get there quicker in the Leaf. It really depends on the logistics of the trip. My point was that max available charging rate becomes very important on longer trips. A bunch of quick DC chargers could end up being preferable than fewer, longer, slower rate charges. Some of it comes down to patience too. I can stop for 1/2 hour and find something to do, but being stuck for 4+ hours somewhere starts to seem like an eternity.

Yeah a 4 hour charge would be more than annoying. Frankly it would be a reason to rent an ICE car. My most frequent trip is about 400 km (250 miles) so the 300 mile pack should make it feasible without stopping.

If the purported 45 minute 80% quick charge materializes, then very long trips would be feasible with the Model S. On the other hand, even if NO charging infrastructure was in existence, that would be unfortunate but definitely not a deal breaker.

 

[mt2]

The size of the Model S is not a problem for me - in fact, it's why I want one. I expect the Model S to be my "retirement car". By that I mean I want a big ol' luxury land yacht. Something I'll enjoy touring around in on Sundays or hauling friends and family to the theater.

So the deal killer for me is if they "cheap out" on the accoutrements to keep the price down. I want real seat heaters (not the usual too-hot and way-too-hot bun bakers). I want adaptive cruise control. I want electric everything with memory settings for each driver. I want a nav system that keeps itself current. I want a voice-activation system that doesn't keep me repeating things slowly. I want auto-dimming rear view mirrors. I want a cabin quiet enough to have a conversation between the front and back seats. I want a smooth ride with excellent handling. I want ... I want ...

I'm willing to give up any number of the above. But trim a little too far - and I start shopping for an alternative.

 

[tdelta1000]

mt2... I agree with you. If Tesla Motors cuts too much off of the final product offering it may cause many followers to seek other EV vehicles. I understand why some of the other memebers are concerned with 3 phase charging but the overall size of the Model S??? If size is a problem then go with the Leaf, Volt or Prius. In any case those are or would be deal breakers.

 

[TEG]

The size of the Model S is not a problem for me - in fact, it's why I want one. I expect the Model S to be my "retirement car". By that I mean I want a big ol' luxury land yacht. Something I'll enjoy touring around in on Sundays or hauling friends and family to the theater...

Yes, and it should be an awesome car for that routine.
I live in the land of downtown parking in a sea of compact only spaces. The Leaf suits that ticket a bit better.
Maybe if I manage to retire someday, I would start to see the virtue in the "land yacht" approach more than I do now.

 

[roblab]

Yeah a 4 hour charge would be more than annoying. Frankly it would be a reason to rent an ICE car. My most frequent trip is about 400 km (250 miles) so the 300 mile pack should make it feasible without stopping.

I get a little worried about so many people thinking they are going to get 250-300 miles *AT 70 MPH* (110 kph). It ain't gonna happen. I really wish someone would calculate what the mileage would be at freeway speeds. It isn't the 300 miles, but more likely 200 to 240. Gonna be a lot of unhappy buyers when they hit that wall of reality. And it seems that NO one wants to slow down our non negotiable lifestyles.

 

[Doug_G]

I get a little worried about so many people thinking they are going to get 250-300 miles *AT 70 MPH* (110 kph). It ain't gonna happen. I really wish someone would calculate what the mileage would be at freeway speeds. It isn't the 300 miles, but more likely 200 to 240. Gonna be a lot of unhappy buyers when they hit that wall of reality. And it seems that NO one wants to slow down our non negotiable lifestyles.

Sure. If the performance is comparable to the Roadster, then at 70 mph the range will be about 226 miles, which is slightly short of the 14-50 at my brother-in-law's place. The Model S may be a little better than the Roadster, though, as it has better aerodynamics and this is where most of the losses are.

I have a few options:

1. I can drive on 416/401 at the speed limit (100kph) and I'll make it
2. I can take Hwy 7 and it's a little shorter and lower speed limit so I'd make it even if I were speeding
3. I can take 416/401, speed a little, and stop in Kingston for a brief top up. Which is what I have to do with the Roadster.

 

[markwj]

I get a little worried about so many people thinking they are going to get 250-300 miles *AT 70 MPH* (110 kph). It ain't gonna happen. I really wish someone would calculate what the mileage would be at freeway speeds. It isn't the 300 miles, but more likely 200 to 240.

Tesla originally built a model of this for the Roadster:

Roadster Efficiency and Range | Blog | Tesla Motors

That shows:

There is also a discussion on this on the TM forums:

Model S Range Estimates Based on What Speed? | Forums | Tesla Motors

 

[stopcrazypp]

Tesla originally built a model of this for the Roadster:

Roadster Efficiency and Range | Blog | Tesla Motors

Model S Range Estimates Based on What Speed? | Forums | Tesla Motors

Model S Range estimates are likely based on the unadjusted combined EPA cycle (same pre-2008 2-cycle city/highway test that gives the Roadster the 245 mile combined rating).

For range and efficiency numbers on the sticker of the Leaf and Volt, the EPA uses the "derived 5-cycle adjustment" to stand-in for the 5-cycle tests that most 2008+ cars go through. All this does is take the 2-cycle test results and take off 30%. From the Leaf FOIA request: http://www.smidgeindustriesltd.com/leaf/EPA/

If you do the same to the Model S, unadjusted combined rating is in quotes, derived 5-cycle (basically multiply unadjusted by .7) not in quotes. You can judge from your and other's Roadster/Leaf/Volt "real world" max range at highway speeds (70mph or whatever), which number is closer.

Model S:
112 (160)
161 (230)
210 (300)

Roadster:
172 (245)

Leaf:
73 (104)

Volt:
36 (51)

 

[EVNow]

Leaf:
73 (104)

At highways speeds (60-65), most people are getting about 70 to 75 in a Leaf.

The other thing to remember is that the heat and elevation changes are as much (if not worse) range killers. Combine any 2 (or all 3 !), the range will shorten well below 70% of quoted number - may be even 60%. That is what I'd expect in a Chicago winter (given the higher freeway speeds and bitter winters).