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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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Are you saying 2023 or 2024 are out of the question? I certainly dont think so. Tesla is in a very different place now. They cant keep up at all with Model 3 and Model Y production so producing a new vehicle soon is a distraction, maybe not best word, that would slow the number of vehicles getting into hands. Unveiling the $25K car is also just asking to osborne Model 3 sales. Wouldnt it be far better to continue to design and even create a test production line and iron out the process and when the unveil the $25K car they also announce deliveries begin in say 3 months. In the meantime they sell every vehicle they make months in advance and they have levers to pull. Like a SR Model Y in the US. Move Model 3 to structural pack and castings bringing down the cost to produce and lowering price if they need to pump up demand.

No, I'm saying that E. handled this poorly, he's sandbagging, and Giga Shanghai will produce the MiC Model 2 when the time comes. Yes, by the end of 2023, when Model Y is fully ramped and profitable at Austin and Berlin.

E. why all the drama and the B.S.? This didn't help the company. Please, next time, leave the Conference calls to Zach and Drew (let them do their jobs). You, sir, need public speaking lessons.

/rant
 
Because during the 2019 AGM Q&A session, Elon told us they plan on a $25K compact car in 2023 or '24 if things go well.

Did you not know this, or did you forget? Or ignoring it because it's 3.5 years old?
Between 2019 and yesterday’s earnings call, things did not “go well.” There’s a matter of a global pandemic and massive supply chain disruption that forced Tesla to push back production on three previously announced models. It’s also clear that Tesla was taken by surprise by the overwhelming demand for the Model Y that’s hoovering up the available battery supply

EM knows what he’s doing. Tesla is executing incredibly considering the circumstances. I’m long and getting longer every day!

So to speak
 
Remember that recession Elon called for? Hey, foggy brains! Once again, decisions made to virtually recession proof Tesla if it arrives. Decisions made to steamroll everything in Tesla’s path. And if the chip fiasco takes as long to resolve as Tesla thinks it will, while they grow at >50% what do you think happens to everyone else? And if the chip fiasco sorts out sooner, what does 100% growth look like this year?

Come on, man! Put your thinking caps on. See the big picture. At least try and understand the pivot. It’s not for me to say who deserves to be in TSLA, but I sure wish it was.
 
No, I'm saying that E. handled this poorly, he's sandbagging, and Giga Shanghai will produce the MiC Model 2 when the time comes. Yes, by the end of 2023, when Model Y is fully ramped and profitable at Austin and Berlin.

E. why all the drama and the B.S.? This didn't help the company. Please, next time, leave the Conference calls to Zach and Drew (let them do their jobs). You, sir, need public speaking lessons.

/rant
It's a tricky situation. Analysts want Tesla to open the Kimono, but opening the Kimono risks reducing demand for existing products. If he said we will begin producing the $25K car beginning of 2024 that will hurt sales of Model 3 and Model Y sales as people say I really dont want to spend $50-$60K I will wait for the lower price smaller car.

In the end Tesla investors should want Tesla to maximize sales and putting out a lower cost, lower margin vehicle that cuts into higher cost, higher margin vehicles. Add in the fact that until production capacity isnt an issue it would likely also end up putting less EVs on the street.
 
Just a couple of brief thoughts waiting for market open.
I think Elon's response to the $25k car question was a bit telling (apart from the FSD detour - that didn't seem to answer the question at all). He said something along the lines that everyone is framing the question wrong. I think (as others have pointed out upthread) that there may very well be a smaller form factor car that will be perfect for Europe and other places with tighter roads, but they certainly don't want to lock in a cost to it, or really even admit to working on it at this point - what would be the benefit other than getting some % of people who are buying 3s to wait.
It's also clear that berlin is behind austin in battery cell production readiness - i think someone else said this as well - they don't even have walls up yet on that building. So it sure makes sense that they are going to their fallback plan of 2170's there to start (which was previously stated). I AM curious about how the difference in pack/frame will work when they do eventually switch to 4680 structural packs. Will they have to re-certify?

Overall was very satisfied by the call, although i think conversation about the optimus bot was a bit of an eye roller in this context - sure it's exciting and interesting, but not super relevant to a quarterly earnings call IMO.
 
Credibility is in the eye of the beholder. From your comments it is clear you are not convinced FSD will be achieved in 2022, nor with the current hardware.

I disagree since:
1) Elon was talking about "FSD software outperforms the average human", i.e. amount of miles driven by FSD without any incident/intervention is higher than the amount of miles driven by the average human between incidents. Since the average human is a combination of lousy, accident prone drivers and immaculate drivers that never have an accident, the average is not hard to beat, according to Elon. He said so literally: the "better than the average human-benchmark" is a low bar, one that he feels very confident they will beat this year, with current hardware.

Elon has all the data. We don't. He even acknowledged FSD timelines were off many times in the past, but still he wanted to go on the call and make these claims. After all he's learned regarding underpromising and overperforming, I'm highly convinced human-bar-FSD will indeed happen this year, with current hardware.

2) for the march of nines they will indeed use DOJO and some more years. FSD is not a static milestone, but will be finetuned in the years/decades to come. This is indeed something that will take time, and most likely hardware upgrades. But that is not what Elon was talking about on the call.

3) even if FSD takes more time, Tesla's future earnings are not in question. They are selling a $50k product at high (and growing) margins. Tesla is not doomed without FSD. Of course it's valuation will be (way) higher with FSD, but still a great investment.

Other notes regarding FSD:
- notice how the voices shouting "LIDAR is necessary for FSD" are shouting less and less hard these days? Every quarter FSD beta progress improves, without silly expensive LIDAR. Waymo and other competitors are wetting their trousers about this, I'm sure of it.
- the fact that Elon is already switching over to Optimus in his AI step-by-step program in his mind, shows that solving FSD is almost a done deal. I mean the path to FSD is so clear for Elon it isn't a question mark anymore. He is already thinking of what's next for real-world AI applications.

FSD might be off-topic most of the time, but today I took the liberty of adressing it since it was one of the biggest reveals on the call.
The biggest problem with FSD right now is bad map data. I don't know when Tesla will stop relying so heavily on map data but doing so will always result in drives full of interventions if that route has incorrect data. Right now FSD cannot complete my work drive because it thinks this on ramp to the hwy still exist which doesn't for more than a year now. And no matter how godly v11 or v12 is, I have to take over if it routes me to a barrier. Cities that are growing like gangbusters have new roads put in and old roads rerouted constantly. I don't know how Tesla can solve this issue in real time yet as I have seen zero progress in this area.
 
Not 4yo's, but absolutely teenagers.

I also think the sentiment in Europe is different. Here we don't have school busses as such, and kids take public transport or bicycle to go to high school. If you're capable to take public transport, you're capable to take a robocab.
In the U.S. the media has scared parents so badly they they believe their kids will be snatched the first time they walk to school. This fear is why there is a lineup of cars at every school.
 
Yes, you ignore 3.5 year old information when you new information that overwrites it.
The problem is that right now there is no way for the cars to adjust the map data. It should be possible, just like it should be possible to slow down for school zones or drive slower on narrow residential streets with cars parked on both sides.
 
I know I am probably breaking some rules here (sorry Mods if OT) but I was looking over my notes from last night and growth rates, sheets and comments about battery production not being the bottleneck right now.
My 2022 production and EPS are -
Q1 350k P&D - $3.20 EPS
Q2 400k P&D - $3.65 EPS
Q3 450k P&D - $3.90 EPS
Q4 500k P&D - $4.20 EPS
Total for 2022 - $14.95 EPS
This is total 1.7M P&D and represents the capacity and production of Freemont and China with only 100k each from Austin & Berlin.
Taking this across the finish line will not be easy but I expect some great macro tailwinds starting in June and progressing from there.

Absolutely stunning performance from the Tesla team - backing out 1 time expenses and this is a MONSTER Q4 and the enterprise value of Tesla being net positive over the life of the company is a monumental achievement.

Cheers to the Longs!
 
Completely agree. I'm looking forward to the announcement of Giga Bratislava by the end of 2022: complete knockdown kit / final assembly of the MiC Model 2. LFP blade batteries FTW.


During the 2021 annual shareholders meeting Elon debunked the idea they'd make a car called the Model 2.

Did you not know this, or did you forget? Or ignoring it because it's 3.5 months old?
 
Q4 Margins
I am pretty pleased with the margins in Q4.
Here are actuals compared to my estimates:

1643293720000.png


Energy margins were poor due to battery constraints. Margins should move into positive territory throughout 2022.
Operating Margins were lower than my estimate due to the $340m CEO Payroll Tax and the ~$100m for the last tranche of the CEO Award (both one time items).

Here is how margins progressed in 2021:

1643293881663.png
 
Between 2019 and yesterday’s earnings call, things did not “go well.” There’s a matter of a global pandemic and massive supply chain disruption that forced Tesla to push back production on three previously announced models. It’s also clear that Tesla was taken by surprise by the overwhelming demand for the Model Y that’s hoovering up the available battery supply

EM knows what he’s doing. Tesla is executing incredibly considering the circumstances. I’m long and getting longer every day!

So to speak

I don’t fully disagree with your post, but Elon 100% expected the level of demand they’re seeing with the Y. He said as much multiple times before they even started deliveries, and of course continues to say as it will be the biggest selling vehicle in the world.

I say this to point out some of the forethought elon has that we can never. When I first saw that Y (a chubby looking version of the 3), I never would’ve guessed this would be true. I couldn’t have been more wrong. We love our Y.
 
WOW - hell of a bear attack to open the day with. Started hard about 10 min before open.

Simeone's terrified of what TSLA is going to do after that earnings report
The stock was just driven down $15 in the minutes before the open with huge spoofing orders (sell orders for up to 5,000 shares). This clearly carried over to the open. "They" are great at creating fear through their fake orders.
 
Uber most certainly does have no shows. I've been there. In Loudoun county. The only time I tried Uber. Once I finally got a ride it was fine but it took a long time to get a ride and 2 canceled. Bad traffic days. Traffic in most urban areas has enourrmass inconsistency. I don't know how you can guarantee a working parent that they'll be at daycare on time if you miss the pickup. Will Tesla pay the late charge to the daycare?

How will that work? Working parents? Is that just a no go? Car seats and what not just a lot of trouble.
I either said it wrong or read your post wrong. I was saying that Uber has no-shows and the Robotaxi needs to have zero no-shows.
 
Long-time lurker, first time poster in this specific forum. I studied economics in college, have worked in the automotive aftermarket for over 20 years now, and have a fair amount of experience in small-scale manufacturing/production. I have been a cars and racing guy most of my life, and have also always been fascinated by technology (my brother and I were weened on Atari 2600 Combat and Pitfall!). I have been following Tesla since they started stuffing batteries into the Lotus Elise, and I've been a Tesla investor since 2018. Immediately after I drove a friend's Model 3 for the first time I was confident the entire auto industry was about to completely change. My friend also said to me at the time, "I've never even really liked cars, but this thing is awesome. My dad and I both ordered one. He bought his just to show the technology off to his friends." It was at that point that I invested a small chunk of change in Tesla stock. My only regret is that I didn't initially buy more (join the club, right?)! :p I fortunately bought the big Covid dip of early 2020 much more heavily.

First, I wanted to say thank you to all the long-time posters here. I have thoroughly enjoyed following along, have learned a lot, and have made some nice money as a result of my time invested here. Thank you very much for your continued insights and for supporting each other!

I'm not sure why, but I finally felt compelled to finally chime in on a few topics after yesterday's EC.

Large-scale production- I have friends and coworkers who are convinced that car company XYZ (insert your flavor of the day) will quickly catch up or surpass Tesla sales with their version of an EV. I feel like Elon tackles this subject every time he speaks, but it just doesn't seem to sink in for many people. Manufacturing things is difficult, particularly complex things. Building an efficient machine that 'builds the machine' on a grand scale is a painstaking and time-consuming process. I see Tesla as being incredibly far out in front of everyone in this regard and I think much of that lead starts with the thinking from the top down. I about spit out my drink last night when I heard the mgmt. team's reaction to the financial analyst who asked about R&D and incubators. The one gent (can't remember name) was incredulous and even dropped an F-bomb. To him it was so incredibly obvious how wrong that way of thinking was about what they are trying to achieve. They were all like, "What is this guy even talking about?" Everything on that whole segment of the call about embedding mgmt. into the production process spoke of how these Tesla factories are completely rewriting the rules of manufacturing on a grand scale. To me, this hearkens back to the industrial revolution...a clean-sheet way of doing things without the constraints of the old ways. That is a fundamentally different environment for innovation, and these guys are establishing a new benchmark for output. That doesn't even take into account the fact that these groundbreaking production facilities are being built in less time than it takes the average contractor to build a new home. It makes my brain hurt just thinking about that fact. Unless the traditional auto manufacturers are setting aside much or most of what they've done or learned in the past about how to operate, they will never again achieve a leadership role in the auto industry.

Priorities and foundations- I'm sure the internet will be rife today with complaints about no new Tesla vehicles in 2022. I think that is an incredibly short-sighted view. Refining and pushing production of their already successful products through the roof is going to build the foundation for the next wave of incredible products. This is just a phase of a much greater cycle that must occur to provide the required foundation. It reminds me of the laser focus on the Model 3 when it was released. Getting past that hurdle is what took Tesla from a boutique manufacturer of luxury cars to a mass producer. The single-minded focus to ensure the success of the Model 3 at all costs is one of the things that really drove me to invest in the company. Yes, there was still talk of all the wild innovations tumbling around in mgmt.'s heads (and there always will be because that is what excites them), but at the end of the day it was all about checking off bullets on the Model 3 checklist to get from point A to point B. That's what we're seeing again in '22.

Component shortages- The company I work for manufactures products composed of a single-page BOM and we have been struggling over the past year to ship them. I can't fathom what that list looks like for these cars. As mentioned on the call about seat adjusters, the tiniest widget can derail the ability to deliver a vehicle. Surpassing past shipments and those of everyone else in the industry was a monumental accomplishment for Tesla in 2021. These component shortages strain and stress every fiber of the organization, particularly the employees. Having a line of people many thousands deep who are screaming, "Where's my *sugar* I ordered?!?" can be detrimental to the collective mental health. In manufacturing, 2021 was the equivalent of making the Tesla team 'battle-hardened'. I believe they are going to come out the other side much stronger and shred all expectations when the shackles of supply constraints slip partially or completely from their wrists.

Dojo- I've already seen some comments from the public about how Dojo is worthless if Telsa isn't even going to use it for FSD. Anyone thinking that way is completely missing the point. Elon's comments about Dojo last night were merely a window into how he thinks about any problem with a lack of constraints. He was simply stating that they will use the best tools to get the job at hand complete. If using GPUs allows them to solve FSD, great. Then they will use Dojo to enhance FSD if possible. Or, maybe they will use Dojo for something else. Maybe it will only be good for making lattes. Or, maybe they will build something that nobody at Tesla has even conceived yet, and whatever that 'thing' is may only be spawned from what they are going through right now. The process of development and discovery will dictate the way forward, and that is something fluid and dynamic. They will use, design, and bulid whatever tools they need to get from A to B. Dojo is just one attempt to help bridge that A-to-B span. It could prove to be worthless or priceless. They just won't know until they know, and Elon was simply recognizing that fact in his typically matter-of-fact way.

Overall, I am more bullish than ever on Tesla after last night's call. This year will be a circling of the wagons and a consolidation of funds and capability. The revenue and profits generated by scaling in '22 will fund Tesla's future. Everyone wants their shiny new toy today, but chasing that path would be foolish from a business perspective. I believe the plan they laid out is the correct one. Exercising some patience now will make the company significantly more durable, which will pay them and their shareholders back in multiples in the years ahead.

For the record, I am still not a Tesla owner. Being a car nut, I've really, really wanted one for a long time. I drive my friends' Teslas and we've had a bunch of them come through our business. They perpetually impress me. I decided early on however that I would put any available Tesla car money into Tesla stock instead. The current apple of my eye would be a revised Model Y Performance from Austin (white paint over white interior if anyone is dying to gift me one :p). With Austin going into full swing soon, being patient seems to become more challenging by the day! :) Thanks for reading my musings.