Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[KarenRei]

A comparison based purely on the capabilities of the vehicles themselves shows the Hyundai Kona and Kia Nero to be credible competition for the Model Y SR.

Kona 258 miles 6.6 seconds $36.5k
Nero 236 miles 7.8 seconds $40k
Model Y 230 miles 5.9 seconds $39k

Will people ever stop making absurd comparisons between vehicles of radically different size and feature classes? Will people ever stop comparing no-profit low-volume compliance cars with mass-produced profitable vehicles? Find out the answer to these questions and more in my new book:

 

[mongo]

If it indeed has a 200 kWh battery does it need to be aerodynamic?

Less aerodynamic can mean less range loss when towing (due to less change in Cd due to trailer)...

 

[SpeedGoat]

^^ Is the actual size of the vehicle and storage not considered a "capability"? Seems odd to compare the Model Y with a fairly compact hatchback like the Kona?

Kona has 45.8 cu ft storage volume with the rear seats down.
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/hyundai/kona/interior
Niro has 54.5 cu ft storage with rear seats down.
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/kia/niro/interior
Model Y has 66 cu ft, which I suspect is the largest in this comparison. I also believe it is the only one with the option for a 3rd row, however minimalist.

The third row is actually a major selling point for my family. We want to be able to drive my wife's parents and our two kids in one vehicle. The kids would be in the back.

 

[jerry33]

Less aerodynamic can mean less range loss when towing (due to less change in Cd due to trailer)...

Right. The determining factor is what percentage of miles driven are towing miles. Big pickups that pull trailers are something like 8 mpg whether pulling or not pulling.

 

[bhtooefr]

Less aerodynamic can mean less range loss when towing (due to less change in Cd due to trailer)...

But you're better off being more aerodynamic in the first place, with one caveat.

(That caveat is, if your trailer isn't streamlined (and it probably isn't), you want the truck to be tall enough and wide enough to streamline the trailer.)

 

[SpeedGoat]

Will people ever stop making ridiculous comparisons between vehicles of radically different size and feature classes? Find out the answer to this, and other questions, in my new book: "Hahaha, NO."

Lets be realistic... the Kona and Niro are absolutely competitors to the Model Y. They aren't identical vehicles but you can be sure potential buyers in that price point will consider them.

Their performance is lower and their features may not match perfectly, but their range/price is competitive. Guess what, that is -exactly- how Hyundai/Kia grew to be the substantial automaker that they are, by offering acceptable performance for a few thousand dollars less.

 

[dc_h]

Piece was never an option.

Peas were never an option.

 

[ZachF]

Agreed, but that's not an SUV

Yes, but if they want body-on-frame for the truck they can save money by sharing the same platform with the SUV variant.

 

[KarenRei]

Kona has 45.8 cu ft storage volume with the rear seats down.
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/hyundai/kona/interior
Niro has 54.5 cu ft storage with rear seats down.
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/kia/niro/interior
Model Y has 66 cu ft, which I suspect is the largest in this comparison. I also believe it is the only one with the option for a 3rd row, however minimalist.

The third row is actually a major selling point for my family. We want to be able to drive my wife's parents and our two kids in one vehicle. The kids would be in the back.

Kona's passenger space measurements are less than Model 3 on 7 different metrics, only slightly more on one (rear shoulder room). Some of the space differences are radical, such as rear leg room being almost 2 inches / 5 centimeters worse. Trunk+frunk space is a little more in Kona than Model 3 if you block out the rear window (19,2 ft³ vs. 15 ft³), a little less if you don't (12,7 ft³ vs. 15 ft³).

Niro's front space is less than Model 3 in most metrics. Its rear space is better in most metrics. Trunk space is similar to the Kona.

Neither of them are profitable vehicles, and consequently, are not mass produced. They're also slower-charging vehicles that top out at 40-45kW on most CCS chargers, 70-75kW on most "fast" chargers, and a theoretical max of ~100kW on CCS V2 chargers, while consuming ~15% more energy per unit distance, plus #coldgate, no app in most of the world, no method for pack heating in some markets (like the US), no OTA updates, worse performance, etc etc etc. Kona's interior is even more econoboxy than a Bolt's (though its seats are nicer than a Bolt's, and it comes with more tech than a Bolt). It's just a really stupid comparison. Not to mention that the waiting list for them in most of their markets is backed up all the way to the point that the Model Y would nearly or already be delivering, and many markets don't get them at all. Because again, they're unprofitable low-volume vehicles. There've been reports of the dealerships that actually have them in the US gouging $5-8k over MSRP for their limited inventory.

 

[EVNow]

Damn... There goes my car.

I guess it was no coincidence, that the Model Y did not get a MR at all. My biggest gripe about the SR+ is that it apparently has no data connectivity for like traffic data for navigation. So I either use the main screen without that, or still have to stick my phone to the dash.

You have SR with premium option. That should give full data connectivity.

 

[dc_h]

I have heard a lot of bad reasons to own a pickup, but this may be the worst reason not to own one.

Are you implying you’re a country music fan?

 

[EVNow]

I have heard a lot of bad reasons to own a pickup, but this may be the worst reason not to own one.

The other way to look at it is - there are people who own a pickup because they think it makes them 'macho'. This is a guy who doesn't want to own a pickup because it makes him look like a 'redneck'. They are two sides of the same coin.

 

[KarenRei]

But you're better off being more aerodynamic in the first place, with one caveat.

(That caveat is, if your trailer isn't streamlined (and it probably isn't), you want the truck to be tall enough and wide enough to streamline the trailer.)

More to the point, EPA ranges - which are what sell vehicles - are not calculated with a trailer.

 

[Remus]

Lets be realistic... the Kona and Niro are absolutely competitors to the Model Y. They aren't identical vehicles but you can be sure potential buyers in that price point will consider them.

Their performance is lower and their features may not match perfectly, but their range/price is competitive. Guess what, that is -exactly- how Hyundai/Kia grew to be the substantial automaker that they are, by offering acceptable performance for a few thousand dollars less.

I don't see how that offering can be "substantial", despite of them being "established" car maker they are not make many of those cars

 

[KarenRei]

Lets be realistic... the Kona and Niro are absolutely competitors to the Model Y. They aren't identical vehicles but you can be sure potential buyers in that price point will consider them.

In the same manner that someone in the market for a new Chevrolet Suburban will consider a Peel P50.

 

[mblakele]

Sorry if this is off-topic for the truck thread, but I thought this article from The Economist was worth sharing. It sheds some light on VW's latest EV push, and perhaps what FCA is thinks about it.

VW’s newish boss is going full-steam ahead with electric cars

Selected excerpts:

[...]

VW’s investors have long grumbled that its vast bulk has not delivered high profits or helped its share price. Mr Diess wants to raise both. Before the “dieselgate” emissions scandal the firm’s bosses bet on scale. VW made nearly 11m vehicles last year. Putting growth before profits also suited its mighty unions, for which preserving jobs is paramount. As a result, VW disproportionately relies on its two premium brands, Audi and Porsche, for earnings.

[...]

Workers occupy half the seats on the firm’s supervisory board and can usually count on the state of Lower Saxony, which owns 12% of VW, to back them. The board can block job cuts and other unwelcome changes. Nearly half of VW's 660,000 employees are in Germany but the company has been unable to shift manufacturing to lower-wage countries, as rival carmakers have done.

[...]

Mr Diess explained his “EV heavy” vision as a broad attempt to cut global emissions of carbon dioxide as well as meeting extremely tough European emissions targets. But it may also provide an excuse to slash the labour force. Mr Diess said lay-offs would be unavoidable as the simpler mechanics of EVs require 30% less “effort” to manufacture than a petrol-powered car.

[...]​

 

[EVNow]

Depends where you live. In BC you have a choice of about 150 Chademo/CCS locations either already up and running or with termination dates by end 2019. And more to come in 2020 already funded. You can pretty much go anywhere. With a Tesla model 3 you are limited to 14 lications and a narrow strip in the main highway thru the province. A model S or X is different as there is a Chademo adapter.

Our number one choice for our next car is a model 3 LR or AWD. But we’ll be buying a Leaf E-Plus because we can actually go places with it. Awesome province with lots to see, but you won’t be seeing it in a model 3.

You should tweet this to Elon. Making a chademo adapter for Model 3 should be a no-brainer.

 

[Beltsbear]

Yes, but if they want body-on-frame for the truck they can save money by sharing the same platform with the SUV variant.

Most SUV's are not built body on frame anymore. The Ford Explorer is a unibody.

 

[VValleyEV]

Depends where you live. In BC you have a choice of about 150 Chademo/CCS locations either already up and running or with termination dates by end 2019. And more to come in 2020 already funded. You can pretty much go anywhere. With a Tesla model 3 you are limited to 14 lications and a narrow strip in the main highway thru the province. A model S or X is different as there is a Chademo adapter.

That is quite an eye-opener, especially the lack of Tesla Superchargers on Vancouver Island. I hope M3 Chademo will be coming soon, not sure why available for S/X and not M3. Also sad that on S/X it costs $450 and looks cumbersome to carry around, and that CHAdeMO only gives you range added of 150mph max, way less than half the (current) SC charging speed.

Some images for visual comparison:

Tesla supercharger screenshot in BC:


Chademo charger screenshot for BC:

 

[KarenRei]

That is quite an eye-opener, especially the lack of Tesla Superchargers on Vancouver Island. I hope M3 Chademo will be coming soon, not sure why available for S/X and not M3. Also sad that on S/X it costs $450 and looks cumbersome to carry around, and that CHAdeMO only gives you range added of 150mph max, way less than half the (current) SC charging speed.

Some images for visual comparison:

Tesla supercharger screenshot in BC:
View attachment 387427

Chademo charger screenshot for BC:
View attachment 387428

Visually it's compelling for that region, but in terms of the number of chargers, not so much. Those "wrench" icons? Those don't exist yet; they're akin to the greyed out "planned" stations on the Tesla map (It's IMHO weird how Plugshare includes planned CCS/CHAdeMO chargers in Canada but not planned Superchargers). Most of the other ones (try clicking on them) are just one or two chargers per location. The Supercharger stations in the area are generally 8-10 stalls each. Which is for a reason - if you plan on charging at some location, you don't want a single outage or blockage to leave you screwed over.

(No need to rehash the charge rate or reliability differences on top of this!)

Regardless, Tesla's move into Canada is only getting started. Again, we know that everyone does this whole "No, they're never coming here!" thing right up until the point that the chargers open, and then funnily enough you never hear from them again.

Cars are not owned for a matter of months. They're owned for years. Making decisions on what's present only at the time of purchase is akin to purchasing a gas guzzler because gas prices are low when you happen to buy it.