Tesla semi is ill conceived...

[GreenT]

I've never seen a vehicle that included sensors for these, but it seems like a clever idea and I don't think either sensor is terribly big/expensive (cooled mirror Hygrometer for dew point, infrared thermometer under the truck for road temp?)

Tesla being Tesla, it should automatically upload the data from your truck to the mothership - and the mothership should provide conditions ahead back down to all the other Teslas around.

I'm not sure XM Weather is the perfect choice, but having an automated download of current and forecasted conditions in the cars and trucks seems like a wise addition. I've seen a couple websites attempting to provide that to the cars through the browser interface already.

Speaking of weather ... is there an app ... or any way to do it in our Model S ... to overlay weather over a Google maps?

 

[Saghost]

Is it better than that, or have I missed something?

2kWh per mile, and $0.07 per kWh (at Megacharger), making $0.14 a mile for fuel?

That's Tesla's apparent worst case without road taxes, yes.

I was going by the numbers I saw on a FB post after Nikola attempted to rain all over the Tesla release:

DIESEL:

$0.31 per mile @ 8.0mpg with $2.50/gal diesel (latest Cummings X15 diesel motor at over 50% efficiency) Includes $0.07 per mile for road tax

$0.38 per mile @ 6.5mpg with $2.50/gal diesel (that will likely go up in price over time). Includes $0.08 per mile for road tax

$0.73 per mile @ 6.5mpg with $4.73/gal diesel (using $1.25 USD per liter in Europe equals $4.73 per US gallon... this is where Tesla may have the greatest advantage... until the governments get wise and slap road taxes on electricity)

The above prices include road tax.

ELECTRIC:

$0.14 per mile @ 0.50mile/kWh (2kWh per mile)with $0.07/kWh electricity (Tesla’s stated efficiency and energy cost). To equal diesel costs with road tax, add $0.07 per mile

$0.20 per mile @ 0.35mile/kWh (3kWh per mile) with $0.07/kWh electricity (Tesla “guaranteed” energy cost at the Megacharger of $0.07/kWh, or maybe the wholesale cost of electricity, or the retail cost in the Pacific Northwest without no demand fees). To equal diesel costs with road tax, add $0.07 per mile

$0.28 per mile @ 0.25mile/kWh (4kWh per mile) with $0.07/kWh electricity. To equal diesel costs with road tax, add $0.07 per mile

$0.34 per mile @ 0.35mile/kWh with $0.12/kWh electricity (nationwide average US retail price, no demand fee... not all truck fleets will have access to Tesla’s grossly subsidized $0.07/kWh electricity). To equal diesel costs with road tax, add $0.07 per mile

$0.57 per mile @ 0.35mile/kWh with $0.20/kWh electricity (California electricity can easily be over 20 cents, plus demand fees will inflate costs further. This is the price Tesla charges at a California Supercharger today). To equal diesel costs with road tax, add $0.07 per mile

PRICES ABOVE DO NOT REELECT ROAD USE TAX. If electric trucks catch on, expect a road tax surcharge like diesel trucks pay on fuel per gallon of approximately $0.07 per mile.

HYDROGEN:

$0.58 per mile @ 8.5mpg(e) with $5/kg hydrogen (lowest price wholesale hydrogen delivered at 10,000 psi / -25C temperature with a government funded infrastructure, or grossly subsidized by Nikola investors to compete with the Tesla Semi truck. Assume over 50% efficiency hydrogen energy efficiency from pump to wheels.

$1.17 per mile @ 8.5mpg(e) with $10/kg hydrogen

$1.76 per mile @ 8.5mpg(e) with $15/kg hydrogen

PRICES ABOVE DO NOT REELECT ROAD USE TAX. If hydrogen trucks catch on, expect a road tax surcharge like diesel trucks pay on fuel per gallon of approximately $0.07 per mile.

********************

My calculation are based on the following assumptions:

One kg of hydrogen is equivalent to one gallon of gasoline in energy, and 94% of a gallon of diesel #2.

Electric energy consumption are based one gallon of diesel #2 is equal to 38kWh, so using 7mpg = 5.4kWh of diesel energy per mile. If we assume that diesel is 45% efficient, and electricity is 90% efficient from the grid to the truck, plus truck consumption, then 2.86kWh of electricity is required per mile, or 0.35mile/kWh.

As of January 2017, federal excise tax on diesel is $0.244 per gallon, plus state and local taxes and fees add $0.31 to diesel, for a total US average fuel tax of $0.554 per gallon for diesel. These fees can vary greatly from state to state.

The beauty of the hydrogen shills is that they can just brush over numbers like any politician and say whatever it is they meed you to believe for future hydrogen costs.

The cost of operating a truck, the cost of diesel fuel and the cost of electricity are all quite stable at the moment. It would be very difficult for any quasi-logical discussion to change that data very much from the averages I presented above.

So the modern best case diesel at current fuel prices is around $0.31 per mile, which includes $0.07 per mile in road taxes. Hence the "half."

 

[Saghost]

Speaking of weather ... is there an app ... or any way to do it in our Model S ... to overlay weather over a Google maps?

No app in the car yet, of course. A few web based bits, depending on what exactly you wanted. I haven't actually used any of these - just things I've read about so far.

OpenWeatherMaps will display radar and precipitation and the like over goolge maps in a browser - I don't know if it;ll work on the Tesla browser or not:

Weather maps - OpenWeatherMap

Tesla winds is designed to give wind and temperature data where you are through the car's browser, using an openweather account:

Tesla Winds and Elevation Web Browser App

Tesla Winds and Elevation

 

[SageBrush]

Interesting, thanks.

Replacing that variable fuel cost with a fixed / more consistent [Electricity] cost is going to make a huge difference. Particularly over here in Europe where the differential between Retail electricity (let alone Elon electricity ...) and Diesel is much more significant - and Diesel prices have been all over the place over the last few years, which has been a headache for haulage companies.

Elon talked about fixed rates in the US. It would be awesome if something similar in cost was offered in Europe.

 

[1208]

Interesting.

Have you posted this on the official tesla forum? If not you should.

Also try emailing the tesla semi team. I think there is a sticky on the forum of contacts.

 

[dhanson865]

They could display road temps from the DOT web services. I know TDOT has it posted in many areas. It'd be good to show external data in addition to the local sensor even if you had a local sensor and it would be better than nothing if you didn't have the local sensor.

Ideally you'd put a trip plan in and it'd warn you of any borderline or below freezing road temps on your projected route.

DOT sensors are only in metro areas and specific areas of concern. I could see why you'd want to have more instrumentation.

 

[calisnow]

Elon was circumspect in talking about the AP advantage only in terms of fuel, but you can bet that the mother lode is a convoy with less than one driver per truck, or less than two drivers per truck for 24 hour driving.

THIS

 

[bonnie]

I do hope you get invited into a focus group for this vehicle because Tesla needs input from people with the experience and willingness to give it.

I know I mentioned Jerome has been in charge of the program. The semi was not designed without heavy input from the targeted customer base. It wasn't designed in a void. I'm sure they will continue to solicit feedback, but please don't imply they did this without substantive input from experienced users. That's simply not true.

As we've found on various Tesla vehicles, some like the features, others do not. Everyone has a different opinion which is why this forum has such long threads at times . It doesn't mean they didn't solicit opinion.

 

[jr4488]

I know I mentioned Jerome has been in charge of the program. The semi was not designed without heavy input from the targeted customer base. It wasn't designed in a void. I'm sure they will continue to solicit feedback, but please don't imply they did this without substantive input from experienced users. That's simply not true.

It's clear Tesla got "heavy input from the targeted customer base" and that "Jerome" has lots of experience from Freightliner. Unfortunately, Tesla has taken the same road as the mega-carriers and truck manufactures and put cost-per-mile ahead of driver safety. Truck driver fatalities have been rising since 2010. The carnage in the trucking industry is greater than in any other industry. I am simply asking Elon to take a hard look at the failure of his advisors in regard to safety. The proof is in the pudding. In the trucking industry, money comes before safety. Building safe trucks and properly training drivers takes money that the trucking industry is not willing to spend.

Tesla is now in a unique position to reduce industry cost through electrification of the drivetrain in trucks. I am simply asking Elon to spend the money on driver safety and crash survivability instead of trying to compete with the cost of rail.

As I originally mentioned, 97% of the truck fleets in the United States have less than 20 trucks. These are the people that care about the safety of their brothers and sisters, sons and daughters who drive trucks.

There are thousands of drivers on the road today that have 1,000,000+ accident free miles. It is a matter of great pride for us. These are the people who have been left out of the loop at Tesla.

Trucks drivers are going to be around for a long time. AP technology is simply going to allow drivers to drive more trucks at the same time and better compete with rail. Safety needs to be the number one focus...

jack

 

[tomas]

I know I mentioned Jerome has been in charge of the program. The semi was not designed without heavy input from the targeted customer base. It wasn't designed in a void. I'm sure they will continue to solicit feedback, but please don't imply they did this without substantive input from experienced users. That's simply not true.

As we've found on various Tesla vehicles, some like the features, others do not. Everyone has a different opinion which is why this forum has such long threads at times . It doesn't mean they didn't solicit opinion.

I did not mean to imply that they didn’t. In fact, I believe they did a great job, and that many of the features mentioned by OP may very already be in the design, or very easily added. How much can you enumerate in a brief reveal?! However, I thought the post was overall constructive (despite the nasty title), and I’d like to see that input go to Tesla, not us kibbitzers

 

[SageBrush]

In the trucking industry, money comes before safety. Building safe trucks and properly training drivers takes money that the trucking industry is not willing to spend.

Are you suggesting that Tesla develop and include safety features for free ? Or do you mean that the smaller scale trucking businesses will pay more for a truck that has the features you want ?

Second, while I am not in a position to judge the effectiveness of the features you want, perhaps you would comment on substance abuse in drivers ? That, in conjunction with stats that overwhelmingly implicate driver error in truck accidents, makes me wonder if improved driver safety is outside the realm of tech and gadgets.

 

[jr4488]

Are you suggesting that Tesla develop and include safety features for free ? Or do you mean that the smaller scale trucking businesses will pay more for a truck that has the features you want ?

I want safety built into the truck as standard equipment. There should no option to buy an unsafe truck for less money...

jack

 

[SageBrush]

I want safety built into the truck as standard equipment. There should no option to buy an unsafe truck for less money...

jack

It does no good to make Tesla trucks more expensive while the competitors are cheaper.
Agitate at the federal level, since you are essentially asking for heightened regulation. You have to admit that your stance is a bit ironic if my understanding is correct that the trucking industry is overwhelmingly a bastion of Republican support.

 

[jr4488]

Second, while I am not in a position to judge the effectiveness of the features you want, perhaps you would comment on substance abuse in drivers ? That, in conjunction with stats that overwhelmingly implicate driver error in truck accidents, makes me wonder if improved driver safety is outside the realm of tech and gadgets.

When I was a driving instructor, about 1/3 of the new driver applicants would fail a drug test (even knowing ahead of time that they would be tested). These people never get their commercial license.

Mandatory random roadside drug testing is performed on all drivers regularly in the United States. Drivers are also tested after an accident. According to the FMCSA, .7% fail the drug test (mostly marijuana) and .06% fail the alcohol test.

FMCSA Announces Controlled Substances Random Testing Rate for Calendar Year 2017

A big part of the current driver shortage is that people can't pass the drug testing. This has been exacerbated by the opioid crisis.

According to the FMCSA, the vast majority of truck accidents (over 80%) in the United States are caused by cars.

80 percent of car-truck crashes caused by car drivers, ATA report says

An important element in driving a truck safely is to reduce interactions with cars and to spot cars in advance that are more likely to pose a threat. I'd love to talk to the AP team at Tesla about how to do that!...

jack

 

[Zythryn]

... I am simply asking Elon to take a hard look at the failure of his advisors in regard to safety. ...

Aren’t you jumping to conclusions?
Have you tested one of the Tesla trucks?
Many of the good ideas you mention may already be there, or be planned.
This was basically a media event, and they were talking about points investors and the public are interested in, not truckers. So it would seem to me they picked talking points appropriate to that audience.
Just because they didn’t talk about it doesn’t mean it isn’t planned.

 

[bonnie]

It's clear Tesla got "heavy input from the targeted customer base" and that "Jerome" has lots of experience from Freightliner. Unfortunately, Tesla has taken the same road as the mega-carriers and truck manufactures and put cost-per-mile ahead of driver safety. Truck driver fatalities have been rising since 2010. The carnage in the trucking industry is greater than in any other industry. I am simply asking Elon to take a hard look at the failure of his advisors in regard to safety. The proof is in the pudding. In the trucking industry, money comes before safety. Building safe trucks and properly training drivers takes money that the trucking industry is not willing to spend.

Tesla is now in a unique position to reduce industry cost through electrification of the drivetrain in trucks. I am simply asking Elon to spend the money on driver safety and crash survivability instead of trying to compete with the cost of rail.

As I originally mentioned, 97% of the truck fleets in the United States have less than 20 trucks. These are the people that care about the safety of their brothers and sisters, sons and daughters who drive trucks.

There are thousands of drivers on the road today that have 1,000,000+ accident free miles. It is a matter of great pride for us. These are the people who have been left out of the loop at Tesla.

Trucks drivers are going to be around for a long time. AP technology is simply going to allow drivers to drive more trucks at the same time and better compete with rail. Safety needs to be the number one focus...

jack

Elon personally takes a lot of pride in their safety ratings for all Tesla vehicles. I would not be so sure that the people that care about safety have been left out of the loop ...

 

[fsch]

Drivers, fuel, maintenance, tyres

Thanks for sharing this table.

Insurance appears to be a non-negligible cost, 2 times more than the tires. I'm not aware of the main risks in that industry and if "autopilot" would reduce them significantly, but it would certainly help, for instance to have emergency braking when the driver is distracted, or the truck stopping within the lane if he falls asleep, etc.

 

[brucet999]

-The large low windshield will allow a deer or cow to breach the cab in a 70 mph collision
-No roll cage
-No fire suppression
-No anti-icing
-No 4-way seatbelt harness
-Center seating allows no way for a driver to climb out of the cab after a rollover
-The hinges on the suicide doors will jam shut in a forward motion side swipe.
-The windshield is not reachable from the drivers seat, leaving no way to wipe it with a rag when it fogs after the defroster fuse blows
-Who told Elon that traction control on the tractor will eliminate jackknifes?
-Drive wheel fairings look like they will get in the way when trying to chain-up in the middle of the night in the wind and sub-zero weather
-No "T" handle for the trailer brakes
-No headache rack


I'm all for saving the environment. But the trucking industry is in desperate need of a safety revolution first. Here're some ideas:


-a button I can push in bad weather that jerks one of the drive tires and reads out on a display how much traction I have available
-an audio announcement I can have in bad weather at night that tells me when I am about to cross a bridge so I can line-up and "float" across the ice
-a powered 5th-wheel with axle weight sensors so I can properly balance the trailer and load the drives without having to use a CAT scale
-I need a display showing air temperature, road temperature and dew point
-I need cruise control that can switch between maintaining a set speed or maintaining a set tension on the tires
-I need a mixer for the trailer brakes that I can set according to the load in the trailer
-I need voice controlled access to road conditions and cams WYDOT Travel Information Service (Laramie)
-Is there any technology that could help detect black ice?
-I'd like an audible warning if the trailer loses tracking with the tractor
-I'd like automatic trailer ejection if the rig is blowing over in a wind gust
- "…powered 5th-wheel with axle weight sensors so I can properly balance the trailer and load the drives…" Moving it forward or back to shift weight?


jack

Can you explain some of your listed items for those of us who have not driven tractor-trailer rigs?

- Jackknifes - what causes them? I have assumed that a heavy trailer pushes the 5th wheel to one side or the other when its brakes are not able to slow it as fast as the tractor. I'm guessing that there must be several causes that you could explain to us.
- "…cruise control that can switch between maintaining a set speed or maintaining a set tension on the tires." By "tension" do you mean torque applied to the axles; traction force against the road; what?
- Mixer for trailer brakes. What would that do? are you talking about balancing braking effort between trailer and tractor?
- …trailer loses tracking with the tractor" First indication of jackknife?
- "T" handle for trailer brakes.

 

[jr4488]

It does no good to make Tesla trucks more expensive while the competitors are cheaper.
Agitate at the federal level, since you are essentially asking for heightened regulation. You have to admit that your stance is a bit ironic if my understanding is correct that the trucking industry is overwhelmingly a bastion of Republican support.

Lee Iacocca revived Ford and later Chrysler by investing in non federally mandated safety equipment and designs that costs more money at the time. Tesla can easily do the same thing because they will me the only truck manufacturer with a low cost electrified drivetrain for a few years.

Under Obama, companies like Goldman Sachs destroyed $16 trillion dollars in the United States alone. He responded by bailing them out with our money and nobody ever went to jail. Then, he let the banks foreclose on our homes. But the real reason Trump got elected was because the democrats swindled the only person who would have beat trump, Bernie Sanders...

jack

 

[SageBrush]

I looked up some data from the FMCSA, which tracks accident causes involving commercial trucking. One example:



Half of the accidents noted driver and brakes violations. May I politely suggest that lower hanging fruit than some of your suggestions should be picked ? Certainly jack-knifing reduction and braking through regen are important advances that an EV truck includes for free.