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No answers. So it's either EUR 99.000 (US$155.529) or EUR 117.810 (US$185.080), and I'm afraid it is the latter.
Did I say price hike?
I've sent Tesla (the EU sales desk) a message asking them about the real price and will report back when I get an answer.
I've also posted this as part of my post on that same blog entry at Tesla's blogs, so hopefully they will have to tell the full price. Isn't it illegal when you are selling something not to clearly mark if it is VAT included or excluded in EU countries?
Cobos
Cobos
I don't think it's a bad idea for them to start working on this. They won't deliver cars to Europe until sometime in late 2009, and by then at least the initial 2008 model year US back orders will be filled.
Remember, the more cash they have coming in, the sooner they will be able to get Whitestar out, and then follow it up with the Bluestar. They have a lot of momentum right now, they don't want to risk losing that because they took too long to respond to new opportunities. That's supposed to be the advantage of being small; being quicker and more nimble.
Remember, the more cash they have coming in, the sooner they will be able to get Whitestar out, and then follow it up with the Bluestar. They have a lot of momentum right now, they don't want to risk losing that because they took too long to respond to new opportunities. That's supposed to be the advantage of being small; being quicker and more nimble.
I have no problems with what may be perceived as a European "price hike." The falling dollar has certainly hurt their margins and European sales (assuming they start delivering actual cars) will help hedge against currency fluctuations. Also, AFAIK, US 2009 pricing has yet to be announced. So it's hard to say what the real price difference will be.
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siry
Member
Sorry about not addressing some of the questions - it has been a very busy time and I haven't been reading this board as often.
The price for the limited edition is excluding VAT or any other applicable registration taxes and fees. These things vary from country to country so we are quoting a price which excludes all applicable taxes.
In thinking about the relative price, you should compare US prices and Euro prices of other European sports cars. Purely as an example, if it was a straight conversion then a Porsche 911 Carrera S (base price $83,800 in the US) would be equivalent to 53,718 Euro, or 63,924 Euro with 19% VAT. The price on their german website is 91,838 Euro.
Look at the Porsche Turbo and the difference is huge. US base price $126,000. Comparable Germany price 117,774 Euro (assuming 19% VAT). Quoted price on the website is 140,152 Euro including VAT.
Using a straight currency conversion, why doesn't the Porsche Turbo cost $183,000 in the US?
In addition, if you look at pricing and fees in countries like Norway or Denmark, our car will be an extraordinary bargain. High performance sportscars are taxed at a rate of about 100% in both countries. I don't have the info on hand but our car at 99,000 Euro will be substantially cheaper than a basic Porsche since EVs carry no registration tax.
Bottom line is that pricing needs to be looked at in comparison to local competition. Also, because a large portion of the car cost is not dollar denominated, but rather Euro and Pound denominated (the cells are bought in dollars but are subject to the price of the dollar vs. Yen), the reality is that the US price will fluctuate as the US currency does, with the European pricing likely to be more stable relative to our cost base.
For this reason, we raised price from $92,000 base to $98,000 base last June. To maintain adequate profit margins we will be raising prices again for 2009, although the specific price hasn't been announced yet.
Furthermore, as you look at our market entry strategy, you need to take into account the "startup costs" of entering and supporting the European market. We need to price the cars adequately to cover European service facilities, homologation and distribution.
There are a lot of smart and energetic folks on this board, many from European countries - I would be very grateful if you could look at these comparable prices, VATs and registration fees for standard cars and for EVs in European countries. We are working on a model to take all of these things into account when we set regular pricing for the car for the European market when we start regular sales in 2010.
The price for the limited edition is excluding VAT or any other applicable registration taxes and fees. These things vary from country to country so we are quoting a price which excludes all applicable taxes.
In thinking about the relative price, you should compare US prices and Euro prices of other European sports cars. Purely as an example, if it was a straight conversion then a Porsche 911 Carrera S (base price $83,800 in the US) would be equivalent to 53,718 Euro, or 63,924 Euro with 19% VAT. The price on their german website is 91,838 Euro.
Look at the Porsche Turbo and the difference is huge. US base price $126,000. Comparable Germany price 117,774 Euro (assuming 19% VAT). Quoted price on the website is 140,152 Euro including VAT.
Using a straight currency conversion, why doesn't the Porsche Turbo cost $183,000 in the US?
In addition, if you look at pricing and fees in countries like Norway or Denmark, our car will be an extraordinary bargain. High performance sportscars are taxed at a rate of about 100% in both countries. I don't have the info on hand but our car at 99,000 Euro will be substantially cheaper than a basic Porsche since EVs carry no registration tax.
Bottom line is that pricing needs to be looked at in comparison to local competition. Also, because a large portion of the car cost is not dollar denominated, but rather Euro and Pound denominated (the cells are bought in dollars but are subject to the price of the dollar vs. Yen), the reality is that the US price will fluctuate as the US currency does, with the European pricing likely to be more stable relative to our cost base.
For this reason, we raised price from $92,000 base to $98,000 base last June. To maintain adequate profit margins we will be raising prices again for 2009, although the specific price hasn't been announced yet.
Furthermore, as you look at our market entry strategy, you need to take into account the "startup costs" of entering and supporting the European market. We need to price the cars adequately to cover European service facilities, homologation and distribution.
There are a lot of smart and energetic folks on this board, many from European countries - I would be very grateful if you could look at these comparable prices, VATs and registration fees for standard cars and for EVs in European countries. We are working on a model to take all of these things into account when we set regular pricing for the car for the European market when we start regular sales in 2010.
Ok Mr. Siry, your flattery has worked...
Sticker prices:
Porsche Carrera S
US $ 83.800
UK £ 67.860 = US $ 133.528 +59%
DE € 91.838 = US $ 144.278 +72%
NL € 132.126 = US $ 207.570 +147%
NO kr 1.350.000 = US $ 268.555 +220%
Porsche 911 Turbo
US $ 126.000
UK £ 97.840 = US $ 192.520 +52%
DE € 140.152 = US $ 220.178 +75%
NL € 201.929 = US $ 317.230 +152%
NO kr 1.890.000 = US $ 375.977 +198%
Tesla Roadster (2009 model; estimated)
US $ 120.000
NL € 117.810 = US$ 185079 +54%
In NL there are other smaller benefits (no road tax, for example).
However: WHY? If I were Tesla I too would try to get as much money from this limited edition as possible. But I had just convinced my wife that EUR 80.000 (US$ 125000) wasn't all that unreasonable. :frown:
DE = Germany; NL = Netherlands; NO = Norway.
I suppose flattery works on my too
Looking at 2 different sporty cars, Porsche 911 Turbo and Mini Cooper S.
Using the 3 most popular car models in 2007: VW Passat Wagon, VW Golf, Toyota Avensis Wagon, to see more normal cars.
Looking at Norwegian market, using Norwegian prices listed in NOK.
VAT at 25%, Pigouvian tax divided up into it's components which are Weight component, Engine power (kW or bhp) component and CO2 emission component. There are some rounding errors and this is a guideline not exact data. Base price the price I arrive at by subtracting VAT and pigouvian taxes from the listed sale price. Should correspond to US prices converted directly to NOK.
Porsche 911 Turbo
6 spd manual, 480bhp, Total price: 2 140 000
Base price: 935 000, VAT: 233 750, Weight: 87 000, CO2: 237 000, Power: 645 000
Mini S
6 spd manual, 175bhp. Total Price: 303 000
Base Price: 140500, VAT: 35 000, Weight: 43 000, CO2: 13 500, Power: 69 000
Vw Passat Wagon Trendline
5 spd manual 105bhp, diesel. Total Price: 315 000
Base price: 178 000, VAT: 44 500, Weight: 69 000, CO2: 8 200, Power: 14 200
VW Golf Trendline
5 spd manual, 102bhp, gasoline. Total Price: 240 000
Base Price: 126 000, VAT: 31 500, Weight: 40 800, CO2: 27 500, Power: 13 000
Toyota Avensis Wagon Avensis equipment level
6 spd manual, 126bhp, diesel. Total price: 300 600
Base Price: 152 500, VAT: 38 000, Weight: 67 000, CO2: 16 600, Power: 24 600
Hope this is helpfull.
Cobos
Sources:
http://www.porsche.no
Volkswagen
MINI
http://www.toyota.no/index.aspx
DinSide Motor - (for splitting up the pigouvian taxes)
Unfortunately there isn't much EV based competing with the Roadster (except maybe Fisker Karma). Especially if you look at the near future as in 3-5 years. Comparing to the mentioned Whitestar specs there isn't much either, except maybe the Think Ox or MiEV. But both of these are more geared towards basic transportation not luxury.
Cobos
Local competition for a high performance all electric car? You might have to wait a while for that, and they will probably more expensive than the Tesla. The competition are other sports cars anyway, which the Tesla already outperforms and is cheaper to purchase and operate. It also offers a unique driving experience - maximum acceleration at all speeds, without having to be a professional driver, or replace your clutch for a fortune every 6 months. Another point is the sooner the Tesla gets out there on European roads and people notice it, the sooner we will see the European manufacturers play catch up like in the US.
Ironic, it seems to me there are more incentives to buy an electric car in Europe than in the US (especially when you also take into account recent incentives to install solar panels), yet most of the "activity" surrounding electric cars/batteries comes from the US.
Ironic, it seems to me there are more incentives to buy an electric car in Europe than in the US (especially when you also take into account recent incentives to install solar panels), yet most of the "activity" surrounding electric cars/batteries comes from the US.
In the "old" days -- until perhaps the late 1980s -- some drivers would buy a Mercedes-Benz in Germany, drive it all over Europe, and then import it, all at a significant savings over buying in the States. (This option was offered to my uncle in 1989 when he bought his first S-class.) If I remember correctly, some of the savings came from the difference in importing a used (i.e., driven all over Europe) car versus Mercedes exporting a new one, but it also came from the dollar's relative strength.
Nowadays, with the euro at unimaginable levels, I would think this option makes no sense at all. But currency fluctuations are fickle. It's quite possible that the euro would fall on hard times as quickly as it has risen. I believe the euro's desired exchange rate when issued a few years ago was around one-to-one (dollar-to-euro). Sometimes I wonder whether manufacturers keep this idea in mind when they price items (e.g., Canon 40D: Amazon.fr -- 941 euros; Amazon.com -- $1,017, not $1,500). Perhaps, too, Tesla may have been influenced by it.
Incidentally, many of my clients and friends who travel regularly have told me they will be skipping Europe this year. As one said, "It's just not fun any more."
Nowadays, with the euro at unimaginable levels, I would think this option makes no sense at all. But currency fluctuations are fickle. It's quite possible that the euro would fall on hard times as quickly as it has risen. I believe the euro's desired exchange rate when issued a few years ago was around one-to-one (dollar-to-euro). Sometimes I wonder whether manufacturers keep this idea in mind when they price items (e.g., Canon 40D: Amazon.fr -- 941 euros; Amazon.com -- $1,017, not $1,500). Perhaps, too, Tesla may have been influenced by it.
Incidentally, many of my clients and friends who travel regularly have told me they will be skipping Europe this year. As one said, "It's just not fun any more."
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Fisker
Looks like Fisker is also talking about sales in Europe.
Fisker to Spread Karma Across the Pond | EcoGeek
Any credence to the rumor that the Karma was a design that Fisker submitted for the Whitestar and Tesla turned down?
Looks like Fisker is also talking about sales in Europe.
Fisker to Spread Karma Across the Pond | EcoGeek
Any credence to the rumor that the Karma was a design that Fisker submitted for the Whitestar and Tesla turned down?
Well I just posted this and then 2 minutes later, I see this ABG post:
Rumormill: Fisker designed Tesla's upcoming Whitestar sedan - AutoblogGreen
Probably deserves a new thread if people want to talk about it.
Edit - New thread about Fisker here: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/news...nally-fisker-s-design-whitestar.html#post7392
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