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The Bolt may pull a few sales from the Model 3 only because of the timing. The Bolt will show up one year before the Model 3 shows up and that might push someone with too little patience. No where near enough to make any difference but it might grab a few people.
 
vs. mainstream vehicles, the Bolt should sell just fine. No, it's not a looker, but neither are crossovers like its Chevy Trax cousin or the Honda CR-V (quite ugly, yet a top seller nearly every year).



Conclusion: potential to be the new "Prius". Toyota should be alarmed... the simply Mirai won't do against the Bolt. Nissan, your move.

The Bolt is not a Crossover like the CR-V. It is compact hatchback like the Honda Fit.

It does not have the ground clearance nor the high seating position that gives you a commanding view of the road that people love so much.

It has zero Chance of selling 350k units per year unless GM knocks of $15k off the price.

Prius would not sell as well as it does if it started at $37.5 MSRP and you could buy a BMW 3 Series Hybrid for the same money that gets ~50 MPG.

Potential Bolt customers will have an analogous choice in the Model 3.
 
The Bolt may pull a few sales from the Model 3 only because of the timing. The Bolt will show up one year before the Model 3 shows up and that might push someone with too little patience. No where near enough to make any difference but it might grab a few people.

Model 3 will most likely be more expensive all the way into 2018. Also, there is a high chance that you have to wait for one for quite some time even if you order in 2017. The Bolt will probably not have that "problem".
 
Model 3 will most likely be more expensive all the way into 2018. Also, there is a high chance that you have to wait for one for quite some time even if you order in 2017. The Bolt will probably not have that "problem".

No one will be buying a Model 3 for 35k until at least 2018 or maybe even 2019. Tesla will sell as many high priced Model 3's before they offer them for 35k. Look at the Model X, most of the ones sold so far are over 140K new. It will be almost a year from now until anyone will receive an 80k Model X.

I think a realistic price for early Model 3 is probably going to be close to a fully loaded BMW M3 (70-80k).
 
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Model 3 will most likely be more expensive all the way into 2018. Also, there is a high chance that you have to wait for one for quite some time even if you order in 2017. The Bolt will probably not have that "problem".

It may even have ELR availability. :crying: :tongue:

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It doesn't need to be a threat (assumedly to the Model 3?) in order to be successful.

Depends on your definition of successful.
 
No one will be buying a Model 3 for 35k until at least 2018 or maybe even 2019. Tesla will sell as many high priced Model 3's before they offer them for 35k. Look at the Model X, most of the ones sold so far are over 140K new. It will be almost a year from now until anyone will receive an 80k Model X.

I think a realistic price for early Model 3 is probably going to be close to a fully loaded BMW M3 (70-80k).
I disagree for a couple of reasons. First of all, why would someone buy a Model 3 for the price of a Model S? Secondly, Tesla has been marketing the Model 3 as the car for the masses. If the masses can't buy the Model 3, it'd be a marketing disaster.
 
I disagree for a couple of reasons. First of all, why would someone buy a Model 3 for the price of a Model S? Secondly, Tesla has been marketing the Model 3 as the car for the masses. If the masses can't buy the Model 3, it'd be a marketing disaster.
I think you're both right there. I think Tesla will hit their price point of $35,000 US before incentives, there's too much riding on that claim to miss it. And I think you'll be able to fully option it out for a fair amount more money ($50k? $60k? who knows, I can't really expect $80k... but who knows)
The real trick here though is that, just as with the S, and the X, you'll be able to reserve a $35,000 car at launch, but the people who buy the fully optioned ones will get production priority, so delivery of that cheap car will be a long way away.
 
I think you're both right there. I think Tesla will hit their price point of $35,000 US before incentives, there's too much riding on that claim to miss it. And I think you'll be able to fully option it out for a fair amount more money ($50k? $60k? who knows, I can't really expect $80k... but who knows)
The real trick here though is that, just as with the S, and the X, you'll be able to reserve a $35,000 car at launch, but the people who buy the fully optioned ones will get production priority, so delivery of that cheap car will be a long way away.
If it's too long away I'll just grit my teeth and get a Volt or Bolt.

I submit to you the vast majority of people would choose the Bolt if they couldn't get a Model 3 for the $35K price point. As I said, marketing disaster for Tesla.
 
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I think you're both right there. I think Tesla will hit their price point of $35,000 US before incentives, there's too much riding on that claim to miss it. And I think you'll be able to fully option it out for a fair amount more money ($50k? $60k? who knows, I can't really expect $80k... but who knows)
The real trick here though is that, just as with the S, and the X, you'll be able to reserve a $35,000 car at launch, but the people who buy the fully optioned ones will get production priority, so delivery of that cheap car will be a long way away.

Yeah, it is not clear what Elon meant with "fully operational Gigafactory needed". I assume they are not going to sell the car at a loss so I think the $35k model will not happen until the battery pack costs has gone down further. I except a fully loaded model will be $65k+. Maybe you will be able to get the performance model with SC access and not much else for around $50k. There will be plenty of customers for those in 2017 anyway.

A base model 3 series is $33.5k now so they definitely need to hit $35k not too long after the first cars are delivered in 2017. Worst case two years after is my guess :)
 
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If it's too long away I'll just grit my teeth and get a Volt or Bolt.

I submit to you the vast majority of people would choose the Bolt if they couldn't get a Model 3 for the $35K price point. As I said, marketing disaster for Tesla.
I think we have different definitions of disaster. And Tesla obviously has different definitions of "time".
The Bolt will be available a minimum of 2 years before Model 3, and I'm guessing 3. I'm guessing another 6 months to a year after that before the first of the bare bones Model 3s rolls off the production line. I don't see it as a disaster for Tesla, but I do see it as an opportunity for GM to sell a few Bolts before people can get their hands on the better vehicle.
 
I disagree for a couple of reasons. First of all, why would someone buy a Model 3 for the price of a Model S? Secondly, Tesla has been marketing the Model 3 as the car for the masses. If the masses can't buy the Model 3, it'd be a marketing disaster.

This happens all the time, not everyone wants a big car. They still want the same performance and features but in a smaller package.
Mercedes does this with the C, E, and S Class in their AMG variants. A fully loaded C63S(100K+) is more expensive than an E Class and just as expensive as a base S Class(95k).

It won't be a marketing disaster. The Model S was originally marketed as a 50k car for the masses(S40). Look at it now, it's selling over 50k units a year(up from their previous estimates of 20-30k per year) at a price that sometimes reaches almost 145k for a fully loaded P90D.

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I think you're both right there. I think Tesla will hit their price point of $35,000 US before incentives, there's too much riding on that claim to miss it. And I think you'll be able to fully option it out for a fair amount more money ($50k? $60k? who knows, I can't really expect $80k... but who knows)
The real trick here though is that, just as with the S, and the X, you'll be able to reserve a $35,000 car at launch, but the people who buy the fully optioned ones will get production priority, so delivery of that cheap car will be a long way away.

The Model 3 will most likely mirror the Model S in pricing. The Model S was originally a $50,000 car(S40) that has today morphed into a $145,000 car.
The pricing for the Model 3 should be compared with the bmw 3 series and not the Chevy Bolt. A bmw 320i starts at around 33k and a fully loaded m3/m4 can top out around 100k.
 
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The Bolt will be available a minimum of 2 years before Model 3, and I'm guessing 3.

I will wager that that a Model 3 Founder Series is delivered before Dec 2018.

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The Model S was originally a $50,000 car(S40) that has today morphed into a $145,000 car.

The difference is Tesla never attached a range number to their $50k Model S. They delivered a $57,499 Model S with 140-160 miles of range. After Federal Rebate of $7500 it was $49,999. Several months later, there were less than 300 orders for the base model before it was discontinued.

Tesla has repeatedly attached the phrase "200 real world miles" to the $35k version of the Model 3. Once configurations begin I think you will at least a 5% take rate on the base model. Maybe with one or two options that keep the order below $40k. And that rate rising as we move along.

If Tesla were to cancel for "lack of interest" or delays delivery for years then it will be seen for what it is: a Tesla bait and switch. And I do think that will be a disaster.

Giving high rollers priority shipping is one thing but ignoring base orders forever or for years is quite another.
 
I will wager that that a Model 3 Founder Series is delivered before Dec 2018.

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The difference is Tesla never attached a range number to their $50k Model S. They delivered a $57,499 Model S with 140-160 miles of range. After Federal Rebate of $7500 it was $49,999. Several months later, there were less than 300 orders for the base model before it was discontinued.

Tesla has repeatedly attached the phrase "200 real world miles" to the $35k version of the Model 3. Once configurations begin I think you will at least a 5% take rate on the base model. Maybe with one or two options that keep the order below $40k. And that rate rising as we move along.

If Tesla were to cancel for "lack of interest" or delays delivery for years then it will be seen for what it is: a Tesla bait and switch. And I do think that will be a disaster.

Giving high rollers priority shipping is one thing but ignoring base orders forever or for years is quite another.

There's no reason to sell an unprofitable model. The only reason other car manufacturers sell cheap models is to meet emissions guidelines for their fleet MPG(ie. Aston Martin's cygnet).
 
Let's say every major automaker pulls this off. Let's say 10 automakers pull this off including Tesla that gives us 2025 EV sales of 8M. Maybe OPEC is right. Global % of gas vehicles on the road is not likely to decline as fast as we hope. Let's say all 10 get to 2M EVs by 2025, thats still only 20M EVs. A long way away from replacing the 1.2 billion vehicles on the road. What does that mean for Tesla? Nothing really. Except that none of this impacts Tesla's growth at all.

It all comes down to the ability to build batteries. Tesla's Gigafactory is estimated to cost about $5 billion when completed and it will produce enough battery packs for 500,000 cars a year when complete. That's $10,000 per car-year ($5 billion/500,000). That is the best number we have now for what battery production capacity costs. Gigafactory II may by cheaper, other ways of going about making the necessary batteries may be more expensive. But let's use $10K as the number to expand BEV production capacity by one car per year (assuming long range BEV here).

For GM to get to 800K BEVs a year, it will cost them $8 billion. According to 2014 numbers, VW's entire R&D budget was $13.5 billion, GM's was $7.2 billion, Ford's was $6.4 billion, and Honda's was $6.3 billion. GM spent $9 billion on capital expenditures in 2015. That $8 billion expanding battery production capacity wouldn't all be spent in one year and it would be a mix of R&D and capital expenditure (more capital than R&D). And even if they farmed all that out to LG Chem or whoever, somebody needs to put $8 billion in to build enough capacity to build 800 K cars and ultimately GM would be footing the bill. If they farm if out to a sub-contractor, they will likely pay more for it than $10K per car capacity because the vendor needs to make a profit too.

My point is that while that $8 billion is in the same order of magnitude of the R&D and capital budgets of the largest automakers, it's far from chump change and boards are very wary to invest huge sums into something that is a totally different direction and could possibly be investing in a dead end technology that becomes obsolete just as the batteries start production and the plant needs to retool or they end up selling tech nobody wants because it's behind the curve. Traditional car companies (like most big companies) are also very slow to change. Many of the older executives are going to hold on to the old way until they can retire. Look at what happened to GM and Chrysler and almost happened to Ford. All three companies saw they needed to make major changes to their cultures as early as the 1980s, but it took until the first decade of this century to finally make the changes (about 20 years) and it was almost too little too late.

And the changes that needed to be made were seen by just about all the executive management back in the 80s, they just couldn't bring themselves to do it. The changes to BEVs is not something the top brass is sold on in most big car companies. There is a lot more denial going on there than there was back in the 80s about corporate culture.

For big car companies, switching to BEVs means completely abandoning technologies the companies have invested many of billions into. They also have many factories dedicated to making engines and engine parts, supply chains dependent on their existence for these engines, and repair shops all over the world that depend on this technology for their incomes. Just the engine technology is a very big business. Add on top of that the pressure for the oil companies to keep using oil, and talk that oil prices may remain low for many years to come, and executives have an incentive to continue business as usual. Expanding their use of hybrids allows them to put toes in the water with electrics, but continue with their engine investments.

For established car companies the risk-reward for mass producing BEVs leans way over on the risk side right now. On the risk side, they abandon technology they sank a lot of money into, could suffer a huge loss on a battery factory if they settle on the wrong technology too early, there is no proof customers want BEVs except a few eccentrics who are willing to pay $100K for a Tesla or eco types who want a Leaf. On the upside they could potentially be an early player in a niche that takes off, but while most analysts agree that BEVs are the long term future, there is no guarantee they will take off in the next decade. Many are speculating more like 2050. The reception for the Model 3 could change all that, but that won't be known until almost 2020 and by then it will be too late to ramp up to 800K production by 2025.

Factors that may change the thinking are how the Model 3 sales go. If Tesla ends up with a huge waiting list, the big car companies will start getting serious. If there is a major breakthrough in batteries soon, that will still take a decade or more to get to production, but it will probably soften resistance to investing in factories as soon as the production methods are somewhat known. Many car companies are building low production BEVs to get a foot in the water and learn the lessons necessary for when the demand starts going up, but they will not be able to mass produce long range BEVs until battery production increases a couple of orders of magnitude over today and they know it will be a huge investment. That means they will sit on the sidelines and watch to jump in.

Tesla on the other hand is moving ahead as fast as it can. If the Model 3 is a hit, it will be the only mass produced, moderately priced, long range BEV available. It doesn't matter if other car companies have long range BEVs on the market before or just after the Model 3, they won't have the battery capacity to compete with it on volume. The Model 3 will probably sell more cars in the long range BEV market for at least 3-5 years and the Model S and X will probably be #2 and #3. Tesla will be selling more long range BEVs than everyone else combined.

It's all there in the math. Even if GM made a deal to suck up 100% of LG Chem's Li-ion battery production to put in Bolts, leaving zero for anything else, they would not be able to build as many Bolts as Tesla will be building Model 3s.
 
GM or Toyota can't exactly switch to building gigafactories because this would devalue all the investment and assets they have in ICE manufacturing. Companies like GM have $140 billion in debt and toyota has $240 billion in debt(In comparison Tesla has a little under $5 billion in debt). Completely switching to electric vehicles would devalue all of their assets and bankrupt them. I think the only big car companies that could weather such a devaluation of their assets are car companies that have stable CEOs and family control of the company (like Hyundai, BMW or Toyota).

Most of the current car manufacturers aren't vertically integrated and all of their property, plant and equipment is tied up into engine manufacturing. The rest is all outsourced to another company. For example, look at the Chevy Bolt, it's entire battery, and much of its electronics are outsourced to LG.
 
Completely switching to electric vehicles would devalue all of their assets and bankrupt them. I think the only big car companies that could weather such a devaluation of their assets are car companies that have stable CEOs and family control of the company (like Hyundai, BMW or Toyota).
Actually, best suited ICE companies to do the switch are those already bankrupt like Saab.
And Volkswagen who still does not know that it is already bankrupt.
 
Actually, best suited ICE companies to do the switch are those already bankrupt like Saab.
And Volkswagen who still does not know that it is already bankrupt.

The best suited ICE companies for switching to BEV are those that are family owned and have CEOs that will still be around in 20 to 30 years. Companies like BMW, Hyundai, and Toyota are still controlled by family ownership and have CEO's that will be in place for a very long time. For instance, a company like Hyundai, their next CEO has already been chosen (the son of the current CEO and grandson of the company's founder). These companies can survive the massive costs associated with devaluing their ICE assets and reinvesting in BEV.

Most car companies have all of their investments in engine R&D and manufacturing. They outsource pretty much everything else. A vertically integrated car company could probably handle the switch over from ICE to BEV.

VW is already on the path to bankruptcy. Saab doesn't have the capital to fully invest in BEV.
 
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I disagree for a couple of reasons. First of all, why would someone buy a Model 3 for the price of a Model S? Secondly, Tesla has been marketing the Model 3 as the car for the masses. If the masses can't buy the Model 3, it'd be a marketing disaster.



I can help you with how Model 3 can get to 80k plus - think of it as the tricked out performance version of the car. Take the base car and put the biggest battery in it. Add a performance suspension and Ludicrous mode. If AWD isn't standard, then of course add that. Make sure the Model 3 Ludicrous is at least 0.1 seconds faster than Model S (it's a smaller and lighter car, so I'm assuming this is "easy"). Of course it also gets all the luxury options.

Market the configuration as the new claimant to the performance EV crown.

Who buys it? Anybody that would like a smaller and more nimble car than Model S, and likes the idea of getting a bit of a performance edge.

Oh - and relative to a performance Model S, you're saving $20-50k, even if you're spending more than a minimally configured Model S.