Tesla could sell a bidirectional DC wall box just like VW if they wanted to. And there's no reason it wouldn't be compatible with all vehicles.
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Tesla BEV Competition Developments
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diamond.g
Active Member
At some point it seems like they may be more willing to let the LFP pack folk do this over the NCA pack folk.
i’m planning on my cybertruck being essentially at least equivalent 5 mobile powerwalls in a single unit
Was thinking the same thing. Especially since it was claimed to have 240v outlets!
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
The Cybertruck will have AC output capability and will certainly be using NCA. Using a relatively small portion of pack capacity should have little real effect on cycle life of NCA chemistry and neither would using almost full capacity in emergencies.
diamond.g
Active Member
It will be interesting to see, because as far as I knew, the stationary storage products never used NCA chemistry it was/is NMC and it seemed like they were gonna transition it to LFP. Yeah the cybertruck is going to have 240v plug(s) on it, which will likely be limited to 32A (which is fine) but I am not sure if they are going to pull a Ford and do bidirectional charging from the charge port as well. I guess we will see what they do next year.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Actually I believe some early Powerwalls did use NCA, but the difference now is the chemistry has improved and unlike a Powerwall a smaller portion of capacity would be used other than for a severe emergency.
Gauss Guzzler
Safety Score = 42
Don’t hold your breath. Tesla will likely never offer a V2G system.
First, why would they increase the cost of all their cars for a feature only a handful of people might use in the rarest of circumstances?
Second, they’d much rather sell you a Powerwall.
Third, solar + powerwall is a sensible long term approach to our need for low-pollution energy. V2G is not.
Fourth, Tesla already has experience with this. They included V2G in their early cars and found that it went unused.
First, why would they increase the cost of all their cars for a feature only a handful of people might use in the rarest of circumstances?
Second, they’d much rather sell you a Powerwall.
Third, solar + powerwall is a sensible long term approach to our need for low-pollution energy. V2G is not.
Fourth, Tesla already has experience with this. They included V2G in their early cars and found that it went unused.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
They will already basically be doing it with the Cybertruck. Whatever AC output there is can be hooked to a transfer switch, so your first premise is already false.
Other OEMs will be doing it so it will be a feature that Tesla is lacking if they don't.
They will still sell Powerwalls. They are battery constrained and will be for years.
V2G is quite sensible since it leverages an already existing large pack with extra capacity that goes unused most of the time.
The Roadster V2G was a handful of vehicles and most people didn't even know the capability existed. I don't remember hearing about it at the time and I've been following Tesla developments since 2005. It was also an older cell chemistry with shorter cycle life.
The ideal setup would be a Powerwall or two for normal use with the ability to use the vehicle for mobile AC power and emergency home use.
Other OEMs will be doing it so it will be a feature that Tesla is lacking if they don't.
They will still sell Powerwalls. They are battery constrained and will be for years.
V2G is quite sensible since it leverages an already existing large pack with extra capacity that goes unused most of the time.
The Roadster V2G was a handful of vehicles and most people didn't even know the capability existed. I don't remember hearing about it at the time and I've been following Tesla developments since 2005. It was also an older cell chemistry with shorter cycle life.
The ideal setup would be a Powerwall or two for normal use with the ability to use the vehicle for mobile AC power and emergency home use.
Gauss Guzzler
Safety Score = 42
Lemme know when “other OEMs” deliver their millionth V2G-equipped car and we’ll see if it’s still a thing at that point.
Vehicle to Tesla powerwall seems much more feasible than Vehicle to Grid. Very few homes have support for house to grid so going vehicle to house to grid will be difficult until more homes have home to grid.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
How long are you going to keep pretending that the Cybertruck won't have this feature? It's a thing.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I think all that's required is an automatic disconnect switch to isolate the home from grid if the grid goes down, just like what is already used for solar systems and backup generators.
Gauss Guzzler
Safety Score = 42
There’s a big difference between a utilitarian pickup truck including a few power tool outlets and a base Model 3 including 5-10KW output to power an entire house.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Elon has mentioned a 240VAC output, at 20 amps that's 4.8kW, a very small difference from 5kW to power a house. Elon and Tesla are more enthusiastic about the idea than some people want to believe.
petit_bateau
Active Member
Elon is answering "Yes" to the question of whether the launch Cybertruck might have a 240Vac off-grid output for 'islanded' use, not V2G use.
That is an entirely different thing than true V2G which requires an inverter capable of grid-synchronisation, and/or (depending on use-case, but you are all going on about getting black-out protection in your mansions) an integrated automatic disconnect between home and grid, with the ability for the inverter to automatically flip between grid-connect and off-grid mode. And be certified to be allowed to legally do that in all the relevant sales locations. And it is quite right that this is a carefully regulated area, as safety must come first.
Elon is not answering "Yes" to that latter use-case, not yet at least.
Heck, here in the UK, the Powerwall isn't even certified for black-out protection. At least not last time I looked. Here the grid goes out, your Powerwall goes out. Heck, here in the UK we practically can't get hold of Powerwalls at all.
One day we may get this as an ordinary part of any vehicle. But in the meantime I reckon it is likely that early-adopters will be charged through the nose for that full (true V2G) capability as an optional extra, when it comes. Finger in the air, maybe $10-20k extra. NRE and certification costs spread over only a few units will be extremely expensive.
Enthusiasm is all very well, but Tesla also are aware of the current reality.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Are backup generators allowed? They are here. Same technology can be used with Powerwalls and EV's. You make a valid distinction between backup power and true V2G, I'm mostly interested in the former.
petit_bateau
Active Member
In the UK backup generators are allowed with some very careful caveats. For a typical house backup generator (which basically hardly exists as an animal in the UK, or EU for that matter) there needs to be a manual grid disconnect switch, and only after that should the backup generator be able to operate, i.e. the backup generator should be interlocked with the disconnect switch. Needless to say most of these things that I have seen over the years in 'domestic' settings are not done per the book, but that is how it should be. For obvious reasons. And - rather obviously - that is not a UPS. The sequence is : 1) grid lights will go out and stay out, then if you are at home 2) get up off couch, find battery light, manually disconnect grid incomer, then 3) go and start generator, then 4) connect generator to house switcboard. (prob 5) generator stalls and quits, curse, dump some loads off the switcboard 6) restart generator, then reboot all the crashed computers etc. Then some time later notice neighbours have lights on, 7) reverse sequence very carefully. In commercial/industrial UK locations only kosher engineered backups are conceivable. If not at home and lights stay out, tough, as no-one else in the house will safely be able to operate your home-brew lash-up.
The type of Powerwall sold in the UK is (I am fairly sure - and I have checked carefully in the past) not able to operate in a loss-of-grid situation. (I think) that functionality has been specifically disabled in order to obtain the most straightforward (and cheaper) grid certification. I think that same situation exists across the whole of the EU. Most grid-tie inverters available in UK/EU have similar limitations in this respect. (There used to be one that was available for a period - I am fairly sure SouthWestWindPower (SWWP, remember them .....) paid for the design/certification of that and its availability was er "strictly controlled", and if my memory serves me well it was made by PowerOne, was't it the MHI version or something, not the Aurora.)
My humble opinion is that what a lot of you are asking for as a "want" could usefully do with being very carefully described and limited to what is technically possible, commercially viable, and regulatorily permissible. If you write your "wants" out carefully in that way you'll soon realise this is not a thing that is hugely attractive for Tesla to spend a great deal of effort on. One day when Powerwall design evolution stabilises it will be worth them getting the EU certification done for blackout usage (and either the UK can then accept the EU certification, or stuff the UK they can do without). And only after that Powerwall design stability do I expect to see serious 'true' automatic V2G from Tesla using the Powerwall functionality as the certification 'hub' for the various regulatory zones .... including USA.
(one of the lead people in Tesla on this is UK-origin and knows the UK/EU scene well, this topic area is also very relevant to Megapacks and the other storage products)
Just my 2eu/c.
It doesn't have to be this complicated, especially with a power-wall in place. As long as the powerwall is sized to provide whole-house backup.
The connections would be:
grid/utility power -> main breaker -> power-wall -> sub-panel -> all_the_house_circuits
If you have solar, then they'll feed directly into the power-wall. In this setup, nothing gets returned to the grid. A UPS can already do this with hardware, so doing it with software should be trivial, as long as the hardware's (BMS, TMS, grid input sensing circuit, solar input sensing circuit, inverter, AC-DC rectifier, and DC-DC converter) in place.
petit_bateau
Active Member
I completely understand what is technically possible.
However 1) the Powerwall functionality (and main breaker switch widgetry in meter base) Tesla sell in the US is not available in UK/EU, and 2) they are not certified in UK/EU (which is why they are not sold ....).
In UK/EU when the grid goes down, all the Powerwall houses go just as black as the rest of them (unless they have done some real special stuff*).
* I've done a bit of that occasionally.
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