Supercharger vs CHAdeMO deployment

[TonyWilliams]

Fundamentally, Nissan did every EV owner a huge disservice in the U.S. by emphasizing CHAdeMO DCFC at this stage with their Nissan Leaf at the expense of higher amperage L2 charging.

I completely disagree. Virtually no home in Japan, and few in Europe can handle a 100 amp circuit just to power a car. Even older houses in the US might only have 100 amps TOTAL.

Low power that can charge a car in 4-8 hours is all that's needed for overnight charging. The 16 to 30 amps of the existing LEAF does that just fine for a 24kWh battery. Since the Roadster was an extreme limited production car, and the Model S just a dream then, Nissan was building a WORLD car, and that's exactly what they've done. The CHAdeMO standard is the ONLY one that is the same everywhere in the world. Not even Tesla can meet that standard.

Sidebar: it will happen, sooner than later. Somebody will import a US built Tesla to Europe, or vice versa.... SURPRISE !!!! No place to charge.

The charging future of BEV's depends on two things: high speed charging for long distance travel and widespread destination charging. 50 kW CHAdeMO accomplishes neither and costs way too much. At $50k+ installed, it is too slow to really facilitate long distance travel and too costly for widespread destination charging. It is basically a huge waste of taxpayer dollars.

It doesn't get cheaper to install a 480kW charger (what Tesla does with 8 stalls). The brand name of the charging protocol has nothing to do with installation costs. ZERO... NADA.

There is no technical reason that CHAdeMO can't be 100kW, or even 120 - 135kW, just like Tesla.

For cheap OVERNIGHT destination charging (that pretty much means a hotel or grandma's house), slow AC charging is fine (80 amps and below).

Further, by installing slow J1772's in the Leaf, we ended up with lots of very slow L2 charging. If they had put in an 80A J1772 in the Leaf at the start

This might shock you, but the SAE J1772 standard worldwide was 30 amps. It was only after Tesla petitioned 80 amps that it changed in the US. The rest of the world still considers it a 30 amp outlet.

then it is likely that we would have had much faster J1772's installed all over the place instead of the 24A and 30A varieties. At 80A, a J1772 charger is only half the speed of most Leaf's charging off CHAdeMO. This would have been gentler on the Leaf's initial pack design and it would have lowered the install costs dramatically.

If you need a charge in the middle of the day, a trickle from any AC onboard charger (except Renault Chameleon at 44kW) is a joke. Nobody would voluntarily drip gasoline in their car. If you need the power, it should get pumped in and move on.

Even now, it makes more sense for Nissan to divert subsidies from impractical 50-60kW CHAdeMO into retrofitting Leafs with 80A J1772 in the U.S.

With virtually no place to plug this 80 amp cars in, I don't think it will help much. Plus, you recognize that there are 120,000 LEAF's in the world, adding about 6000 per month? Do the math on that upgrade with no place to gain any value from it. No thanks.

For hotels, CHAdeMO makes even less sense. Most patrons are likely to be there for at least 6 hours, if not 8-10 hours. Does it really make a difference for Leaf to be charged in 30 minutes or 2 hours or 4 hours in that case? Further, given the small size and poor chemistry of the initial Nissan Leaf battery pack design, CHAdeMO EVSE's are often installed at the wrong places to facilitate long distance travel.

Well, you have to qualify the hotel charging duty. If it's private and only there for overnight guests (because only overnight guests should be served, not dinner guests, or conference guests, or anybody else... just overnight, SURE, get those 16-80 amp slow chargers in. Throw in some 15 amp / 120 volt NEMA 5-15 normal wall sockets, too, for the teeny battery crowd.

But, Gawd forbid, a transient, or dinner customer, conference, meeting, toilet break, etc, well you're slow 16 - 80 amp charge just takes up parking space, becasue it's close to worthless.

Also, some sleeping customers with "day use" of the hotel are not there long enough for that full overnight charge. I've actually been at hotels many times mid-day, usually to work all night.

My bigger point is that most of the "my way is the best and only way" thinking for EV infrastructure is from home owning, city / suburban dwellers who own their car and who work a 9am - 5pm Monday through Friday job, and that's the only world that needs to be served.

Fast forward to 2018. Nissan will likely to have shipped an Infiniti BEV with NMC chemistry, and is likely to ship a Leaf with the same NMC chemistry. It is likely the battery pack capacity increases significantly. At that point, each and every existing CHAdeMO EVSE is obsolete, an anachronism of Nissan's early foray into electric vehicles. They'll be looking to install 100+ kW EVSE's into places that actually make sense to support long distance travel. The spacing would be different, the number of plugs per station would be different, and so forth. It would have to be a replica of the Tesla Supercharger network.

Obviously, the existing infrastructure doesn't have to be obsolete, but who would argue against a Nissan Supercharger network? Git 'er done!

 

[techmaven]

I completely disagree.

I very much value your point of view and your willingness to engage in this discussion.

My issue is that Nissan had a huge opportunity to shape the future of the BEV and I think they were short sighted along with DoT, DoE (Argonne National Labs), in their visions of a BEV future.

Virtually no home in Japan, and few in Europe can handle a 100 amp circuit just to power a car. Even older houses in the US might only have 100 amps TOTAL.

This can be handled the same way Tesla does it - 40A charging is standard, 80A is an option, and the homeowner can install a number of EVSE amperage options. The fact that the highest option was 24A initially helped shape the L2 charging infrastructure that was set up at great government expense. Further, many of them were installed in all sorts of wrong locations, again because the vision was for vehicles that are Leaf and i-MiEV like.

Low power that can charge a car in 4-8 hours is all that's needed for overnight charging. The 16 to 30 amps of the existing LEAF does that just fine for a 24kWh battery. Since the Roadster was an extreme limited production car, and the Model S just a dream then, Nissan was building a WORLD car, and that's exactly what they've done. The CHAdeMO standard is the ONLY one that is the same everywhere in the world. Not even Tesla can meet that standard.

It doesn't get cheaper to install a 480kW charger (what Tesla does with 8 stalls). The brand name of the charging protocol has nothing to do with installation costs. ZERO... NADA.

There is no technical reason that CHAdeMO can't be 100kW, or even 120 - 135kW, just like Tesla.

For cheap OVERNIGHT destination charging (that pretty much means a hotel or grandma's house), slow AC charging is fine (80 amps and below).

We have lived in a world with multiple electricity provider standards. It is a pain. However, it usually just isn’t a problem. My car is unlikely going to Japan or Europe for charging. If it was really a problem, then there are other solutions, like just swapping components out.

My issue is not CHAdeMO vs. Tesla connector vs. CCS. It’s 25-60kW DCFC vs. 90-135 kW DCFC. At 2C, the Leaf’s 24 kWh battery pack can only handle 48 kW. The actual charging profile difference between feeding it 20 kW versus 45 kW is not as great as one might think. However, the cost of the EVSE install is vastly different in the U.S.

Maybe the fight should have happened differently, but at long as the U.S. was going SAE J1772 for L2 charging, and the Nissan was not going to fight differently and acquiesce with using J1772, then they should have realized that for a car with 24 kWH of battery, the long term future means up to 80A J1772 and DCFC should be built for 100 kW+. It doesn’t take long to get there once one sees the costs and what it means for BEV adoption rates to hit 10% or 20% of our cars on the road.

This might shock you, but the SAE J1772 standard worldwide was 30 amps. It was only after Tesla petitioned 80 amps that it changed in the US. The rest of the world still considers it a 30 amp outlet.

I know this reading a number of the Argonne National Labs papers among others. This goes to the issue that they did not envision what is necessary for a BEV future and work backwards, which is closer to what Tesla did in their planning. Nissan, along with DoE could have pioneered the 80A J1772 extension instead of Tesla. But they didn’t.

If you need a charge in the middle of the day, a trickle from any AC onboard charger (except Renault Chameleon at 44kW) is a joke. Nobody would voluntarily drip gasoline in their car. If you need the power, it should get pumped in and move on.

Sure… except that this first generation of cars had such small battery packs that charging was always going to be more like a drip than a gasoline pump. Therefore, that capacity and the 2C charging limit meant 20 minutes of charging for one hour of driving which is ridiculous. Very few people will take long distance road trips this way.

With virtually no place to plug this 80 amp cars in, I don't think it will help much. Plus, you recognize that there are 120,000 LEAF's in the world, adding about 6000 per month? Do the math on that upgrade with no place to gain any value from it. No thanks.

Nissan was looking to be a leader in BEVs. I think they failed us in that way. There are few places to charge higher than 30A because of Nissan’s poor leadership.

Nissan spends a lot of money to subsidize DCFC and is enticing the government and various other funding sources to contribute to more useless 50kW DCFC installs. Since these installs are for 24 kWh capacity cars with only 50 kW charging rate, the locations of these DCFC installs don’t make sense when they ship ~50+kWh capacity cars with 100+kW charging rates. If you look at the CHAdeMO install map, you really can’t get from one city to another but for Washington and Oregon state. This is an ongoing issue as this money is just being wasted.

That money would be better spent to offer a discounted higher amperage J1772 option. It is in their own interests as they start to ship 2nd generation cars with NMC chemistry. Those existing 50kW CHAdeMO charging stations will have to be upgraded at significant expense. Further, since most of the existing installs have only 1 nozzle, congestion quickly becomes an issue. Again, lack of planning, lack of foresight is plainly evident.

Well, you have to qualify the hotel charging duty. If it's private and only there for overnight guests (because only overnight guests should be served, not dinner guests, or conference guests, or anybody else... just overnight, SURE, get those 16-80 amp slow chargers in. Throw in some 15 amp / 120 volt NEMA 5-15 normal wall sockets, too, for the teeny battery crowd.

But, Gawd forbid, a transient, or dinner customer, conference, meeting, toilet break, etc, well you're slow 16 - 80 amp charge just takes up parking space, becasue it's close to worthless.

Also, some sleeping customers with "day use" of the hotel are not there long enough for that full overnight charge. I've actually been at hotels many times mid-day, usually to work all night.

My bigger point is that most of the "my way is the best and only way" thinking for EV infrastructure is from home owning, city / suburban dwellers who own their car and who work a 9am - 5pm Monday through Friday job, and that's the only world that needs to be served.

What makes it useless is the 24 kWh battery pack capacity.

20kW J1772: ~45 minute charge, $5,000 install cost per nozzle
50kW CHAdeMO: ~20 minute charge, $50,000 install cost per nozzle

In a world with 20% BEVs and where a hotel will need 5-10 EVSEs for overnight guests, which makes more sense to install? At that point, Nissan themselves will be shipping cars that have closer to 50 kWh capacity or more and charge at 100+kWh. Who would want to use a 50 kW EVSE then when there has to be real L3 options for long distance travel?

To put it another way... if Nissan is shipping a 50kWh car using CHAdeMO, and most charging points for that car are 50 kW and they have to then look to replace with 100 kW charging options, and BMW is offering a 50 kWh car but it can use Tesla's Supercharger network, why would anyone buy the Nissan? For just competitive reasons, the 50 kW CHAdeMO EVSE is not long for this world. And the costs are way to high for such a limited use, and the government dollars too precious.

 

[PhilBa]

I foresee a day when we don't have ANY charger in the car. It's a bit silly to think we need to lug around the weight and cost of these chargers in every car.

At home, that same 10kW or dual 20kW charger that is in your car now can be on the wall of your garage. It would connect to the Model S exactly the same way that you plug in now.

When you're out on the road, the 100,000 DC charging stations throughout the country (same number as current oil stations) will be happy to charge you up quickly.

Tony, I respect your opinions and mostly agree with you but this just doesn't make sense. First off the chargers themselves aren't that much weight. But more importantly, it's a lot more flexible to have it in the car. If I had a choice of a charger at my parking space or in my car, I'd opt for the latter with out any hesitation and suspect 99% of EVers would too. Even in a world where there are lots of DCFCs out there flexibility will always win.

I don't know if the 100K DC charging stations comment was tongue in cheek but that will never happen. There simply isn't a business case for that. I could see pre-paid supercharger like networks growing up to handle travel corridors but replacing the corner gas station with a bank of chargers isn't going to happen. I don't see why people keep trying to make the EV charging model along the lines of the petroleum distribution model. The economics are too different and home charging is far more convenient and far cheaper.

 

[abasile]

I don't know if the 100K DC charging stations comment was tongue in cheek but that will never happen. There simply isn't a business case for that. I could see pre-paid supercharger like networks growing up to handle travel corridors but replacing the corner gas station with a bank of chargers isn't going to happen. I don't see why people keep trying to make the EV charging model along the lines of the petroleum distribution model. The economics are too different and home charging is far more convenient and far cheaper.

I don't know if 100K is the right number, but we are going to need a lot of 'em. Yes, for those of us who are homeowners, it is wonderful to be able to charge at home. But a huge number of people live in apartments, condos, or rental houses where anything better than 120 V "trickle" charging isn't so easy to support. We can't wait for every apartment building owner or HOA to make major electrical upgrades. So, to replace the ICE, there is a major need for robust, public, rapid charging.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

My bigger point is that most of the "my way is the best and only way" thinking for EV infrastructure is from home owning, city / suburban dwellers who own their car and who work a 9am - 5pm Monday through Friday job, and that's the only world that needs to be served.

My point would be that your thinking is based on the idea that ~24kWh batteries will be the norm. I don't see that, because either capacity will become cheap and people will buy cars with higher capacity, or the global market for BEV will collapse when governments stop the subsidies. To have a large BEV market you have to overcome contention and to overcome contention you need charging to be as fast as possible and to be ubiquitous.

And working hours are irrelevant. People park their cars and sleep. Car starts full after they sleep. Then they need to add charge during the day, and the more people need to do that and the slower they do that, the more chargers will be needed.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I don't know if 100K is the right number, but we are going to need a lot of 'em. Yes, for those of us who are homeowners, it is wonderful to be able to charge at home. But a huge number of people live in apartments, condos, or rental houses where anything better than 120 V "trickle" charging isn't so easy to support. We can't wait for every apartment building owner or HOA to make major electrical upgrades. So, to replace the ICE, there is a major need for robust, public, rapid charging.

The problem with that idea is that rapid charging at CHAdeMO speeds is not going to be a viable option for people in apartments/condos either. The *peak* charge rate is 200mph (50kW), which means if people were to do a typical weekly station visit, they would have to be there for an hour (for 200 miles of range). Supercharger speeds (120kW) brings that down to 25 minutes (which is more bearable), but still not really good enough (esp. considering the average speed is much lower).

It's pretty clear that having L1 or L2 charging at nearly every spot (workplace or on street parking) is probably the only really viable solution for those people given our current technology.

 

[NigelM]

We can't wait for every apartment building owner or HOA to make major electrical upgrades. So, to replace the ICE, there is a major need for robust, public, rapid charging.

It's a little bit chicken and egg. Are charging facilities at every apartment building necessary to effect global uptake of BEVs or does demand come from owners who've already bought a BEV? As even Elon Musk has pointed out the total number of BEVs currently sold each year is minuscule so I'd argue that there are literally decades to build out the infrastructure.

- - - Updated - - -

It's pretty clear that having L1 or L2 charging at nearly every spot (workplace or on street parking) is probably the only really viable solution for those people given our current technology.

Agree.

 

[Lloyd]

I foresee a day when we don't have ANY charger in the car. It's a bit silly to think we need to lug around the weight and cost of these chargers in every car.

At home, that same 10kW or dual 20kW charger that is in your car now can be on the wall of your garage. It would connect to the Model S exactly the same way that you plug in now.

When you're out on the road, the 100,000 DC charging stations throughout the country (same number as current oil stations) will be happy to charge you up quickly.





They can put a different 100kW plug on CHAdeMO that is reverse compatible. The 100kW charger wouldn't necessarily power an older car, but a newer car could accept either the older or newer version.

It can even go above 100kW. Just lengthen the pins and sockets, just like Tesla did with the Menekkes plug. Easy.

Sounds great, but then every household would have to own a DC charging system as well. My best and most convenient charging is at my house, or a friends house, where 95% of my charging is done.

 

[dsm363]

If every parking spot for apartment and condo dwellers even had a 120V outlet we'd be far ahead of the curb. They'd still need faster public charging but their daily commute could be taken care of or at least a chuck of the range hit reduced overnight.

 

[dirkhh]

If every parking spot for apartment and condo dwellers even had a 120V outlet we'd be far ahead of the curb. They'd still need faster public charging but their daily commute could be taken care of or at least a chuck of the range hit reduced overnight.

That gives you only 30-40 miles over night. There are many for whom this would not be sufficient for their commute.

 

[dirkhh]

Sounds great, but then every household would have to own a DC charging system as well. My best and most convenient charging is at my house, or a friends house, where 95% of my charging is done.

I think this would be a step in the wrong direction. The beauty of my EVs is that we never think about charging our cars. They are charged every morning.
Requiring me to have a dual DC charger setup at home? Not a good plan. An EV that can't easily charge at home is a non starter

 

[Lloyd]

I think this would be a step in the wrong direction. The beauty of my EVs is that we never think about charging our cars. They are charged every morning.
Requiring me to have a dual DC charger setup at home? Not a good plan. An EV that can't easily charge at home is a non starter

Exactly! With a charger on board, I can charge practically anywhere. Limited to DC, I can charge only where there are DC chaging facilities.

 

[dsm363]

That gives you only 30-40 miles over night. There are many for whom this would not be sufficient for their commute.

I agree. But it would open the door to a lot of people. Many people who live in big cities live only a few miles from work because traffic is so horrible. With a 200+ mile range EV that would hopefully only meaning finding a fast place to charge once a week on the weekends. Maybe these same apartments could have a pay J1772 that you'd sneak into charge once a week as well. This wouldn't be as ideal as a J1772 for every single parking in an apartment but that isn't cost effective or practical at the moment.

You would still need DC charging for this to work well though. CHAdeMO stations in the city could work for that purpose.

 

[brianman]

If every parking spot for apartment and condo dwellers even had a 120V outlet we'd be far ahead of the curb.

Nice turn of phrase.

Very little curb-side charging that I've seen.

 

[dsm363]

Nice turn of phrase.

Very little curb-side charging that I've seen.

Happy accident/iPhone typo but still works

 

[stopcrazypp]

That gives you only 30-40 miles over night. There are many for whom this would not be sufficient for their commute.

Not enough for the whole commute, but should be enough for a nice chunk. If the workplace has a 120V socket too, then you double that (or more ideally the workplace will have a L2 EVSE, esp. if many people have long commutes to that workplace).

Then the rest can be picked up from a weekend charge (which can then be much shorter as you get on average around 200-300 miles of range a week from L1 charging alone).

This is way more cost effective than installing J1772 stations everywhere and also minimizes the amount of "attended" charging time.

 

[PhilBa]

I don't know if 100K is the right number, but we are going to need a lot of 'em. Yes, for those of us who are homeowners, it is wonderful to be able to charge at home. But a huge number of people live in apartments, condos, or rental houses where anything better than 120 V "trickle" charging isn't so easy to support. We can't wait for every apartment building owner or HOA to make major electrical upgrades. So, to replace the ICE, there is a major need for robust, public, rapid charging.

Sorry dude but I think you've been drinking the Kool-ade. Try this though experiment: imagine you live in an apartment or condo with no access to charging in your parking space (if you actually have your own). How would you charge your car? Maybe your work place has a charger where you may or may not have an open slot. Will you have to run out and move your car in the middle of the day? Maybe a couple of times? Feel comfortable depending on your employer for a charge? Change jobs or employer down sizes? Or maybe you head for a public charger. Willing to wait for 30+ minutes for each charge? if there is an opening. Charge for 15 minutes at Walgreens (at the corner of Goofy and Hokey) to add a couple of miles??? Will you wind up spending most of the time in your car wondering about where your next charge is coming from or how long it's going to take? Do you want to be an electron hunter/gatherer? The beauty of gasoline is that you can fill your tank in a relatively short period of time (usually). How do you feel when there is a line at the gas station? Most people get really impatient. Even with DCFCs, you simply don't get that "fast fill up" luxury. EVs require a behavioral change and trying to jam the old filling station model into the EV world is doomed to failure. If I lived in an apartment, I would not own an EV - it's currently simply not workable. And, even with public and work chargers, I just don't see it making sense. No, we have to push to get "home" charging in apartments, condos and co-ops.

 

[joer00]

If I lived in an apartment, I would not own an EV - it's currently simply not workable. And, even with public and work chargers, I just don't see it making sense. No, we have to push to get "home" charging in apartments, condos and co-ops.

Ok I do live in an apartment without charger since day one I got my car. With L2's this is an inconvenience. With Chademo at the RIGHT PLACE it would not. All you need to have them placed where restaurants are, hell even a startbucks will do it. In 30 minutes I get 60 miles, one hour lunch gives me 120 miles. If fast dc chargers would be everywhere, I would always use them. 10 minutes give me what a L2 gives me in an hour ! Even a 10 minute charge makes sense !

The problem is that nobody thought that through and has a real concept. Charging stations with one socket make really no sense. So we need multiple sockets AND a system which make sure people get a charge. One should be able to reserve a station and fees should be based on availability and time spend at charger. I.e. if I am at a fast DC and nobody has a reservation, I can charge there as long as I want. As soon as somebody else arrives, it should be limited to lets say 30 minutes. All this can be done using our smart phones, or even better a Tesla app in the car

Fact is that only fast DC charging makes driving an EV stress-less if you are a heavy driver. Of course for people who ONLY use the car to do the same short route every day, home charging is sufficient.

But to all of you who think you do not need public fast chargers, wait until your charger is out of service for whatever reason ! You will quickly scream for a fast DC charger, which we all would like it to be a Super Charger.

So I think one should focus on how to make fast DC chargers cheaper AND ho to solve the contention problem.

 

[stopcrazypp]

But to all of you who think you do not need public fast chargers, wait until your charger is out of service for whatever reason ! You will quickly scream for a fast DC charger, which we all would like it to be a Super Charger.

I think you are going in a whole different direction. No one says you do not need public fast chargers, but that public fast chargers do not solve the apartment problem in a satisfactory way.

Currently DC chargers only have to service demand that overnight charging doesn't service, so they are relatively available. But things will change dramatically once a large amount of people without any overnight charging starts using it. Even a typical "low power" home 3.3kW EVSE can deliver 80-90 miles over 8 hours. Over a week that's 560-630 miles of driving. If suddenly all that driving is offloaded to public chargers, the availability picture will change quickly, and the chargers will have to resemble gas stations to handle demand.

 

[PhilBa]

@joer00, I salute you for being a true believer but I could never deal with that situation. About an hour ago, it took me 9 seconds to plug my P85 in. About the same amount in the morning when I take off. Maybe I'm spoiled but that's how it should be. And, while I don't have a full 100A circuit to my HPWC, overnight it still could fully charge me from an SOC of 0.

Electron hunting/gathering just doesn't cut it for me. I believe even with lots of DCFCs around, it's going to be a hit or miss kind of deal. Do most Americans have your kind of patience? I kind of doubt it.