Supercharger vs CHAdeMO deployment

[invisik]

Nissan reports 630 CHAdeMO sites live today

Nissan's DC Quick-Charging Stations: 630 CHAdeMO Sites Live Today

From the article:

"According to Nissan's Brian Brockman, the U.S. has "a total of 633 operational CHAdeMO quick-charging units today, including 180 at Nissan dealerships.""

That's much fewer at dealerships then I expected. I'm not a huge fan of charging at a dealership, but if it's going to be 50kW then yeah I can make an exception.

-m

 

[dirkhh]

How much does a SpC install cost? How much does a ChaDeMo install set one back?

In another spin-off of this thread, TonyWilliams mentioned that Nissan talks about an average cost of $48k to install a single CHAdeMO charger.
I don't think anyone has been able to get a better handle on the cost of installing a supercharger. I'd love to figure out what the 2 charger, single cabinet on a pallet "temporary" or "mobile" units that they are using in France right now would cost...

- - - Updated - - -

"According to Nissan's Brian Brockman, the U.S. has "a total of 633 operational CHAdeMO quick-charging units today, including 180 at Nissan dealerships."

Of course these are 633 charging units. By that same count Tesla has somewhere around 500 charging units at 99 sites (I keep forgetting what the average number of chargers per supercharger sites is... I think most have at least 4 and some as many as 10? Is there a running total somewhere?)

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Of course these are 633 charging units. By that same count Tesla has somewhere around 500 charging units at 99 sites (I keep forgetting what the average number of chargers per supercharger sites is... I think most have at least 4 and some as many as 10? Is there a running total somewhere?)

Sort of.
Superchargers lists the known information on charging stalls at each location.
You can copy to a Spreadsheet and calculate for USA, Open. I get 587 stalls.

 

[dirkhh]

Sort of.
Superchargers lists the known information on charging stalls at each location.
You can copy to a Spreadsheet and calculate for USA, Open. I get 587 stalls.

So that means they are more or less neck on neck with Tesla pulling ahead fairly soon, based on the plans?

 

[dsm363]

Nissan reports 630 CHAdeMO sites live today

Nissan's DC Quick-Charging Stations: 630 CHAdeMO Sites Live Today

From the article:

"According to Nissan's Brian Brockman, the U.S. has "a total of 633 operational CHAdeMO quick-charging units today, including 180 at Nissan dealerships.""

That's much fewer at dealerships then I expected. I'm not a huge fan of charging at a dealership, but if it's going to be 50kW then yeah I can make an exception.

-m

Do all of them work? I know of three in the surrounding 50 miles that have been offline for months.

 

[dirkhh]

Do all of them work? I know of three in the surrounding 50 miles that have been offline for months.

The article say "633 operational CHAdeMO quick-charging units"

 

[stopcrazypp]

The article say "633 operational CHAdeMO quick-charging units"

Operational seems to mean it was working in some point in time (as opposed to under construction). It does not necessarily mean it is still working right now. The CHAdeMO organization can't tell because unlike the superchargers, the CHAdeMO charger are not all networked.

 

[dirkhh]

Operational seems to mean it was working in some point in time (as opposed to under construction). It does not necessarily mean it is still working right now. The CHAdeMO organization can't tell because unlike the superchargers, the CHAdeMO charger are not all networked.

I was trying to be tongue in cheek... I guess I picked the wrong smiley...

 

[David99]

I don't understand why some are so against or negative about CHAdeMo. No one says it's supposed to be a replacement to Superchargers, or better or cheaper. All I wanted to show is how useful this adapter can be if it was finally available. Counting number of stalls is nonsense as they are in one spot. By that logic a single supercharger in one location with 600 stalls would be better than 600 CHAdeMo chargers spread out. I hope all car manufacturers adopt the Supercharger network and we will all be much happier. But that's not going to happen for a long time. In the mean time I want to have that darn adapter so I can use what is out there. That's all.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I don't understand why some are so against or negative about CHAdeMo. No one says it's supposed to be a replacement to Superchargers, or better or cheaper...But that's not going to happen for a long time. In the mean time I want to have that darn adapter so I can use what is out there. That's all.

This thread is kind of carved out of the adapter thread and is more focused on the "rivalry" between CHAdeMO and superchargers. Of course at this point, given superchargers are still Tesla-only, they aren't really competitors yet, but that might be changing soon (judging from Tesla talking with Nissan and BMW).

 

[Lloyd]

I dont believe the rivalry is between Superchargers as most chademo is ~25 KW and as such it competes more with the HPWC, and High amperage J1772. Part of the competition is that it costs much more to install. I'm not against it, but the numbers make it less attractive.

 

[dirkhh]

I don't understand why some are so against or negative about CHAdeMo. No one says it's supposed to be a replacement to Superchargers, or better or cheaper. All I wanted to show is how useful this adapter can be if it was finally available. Counting number of stalls is nonsense as they are in one spot. By that logic a single supercharger in one location with 600 stalls would be better than 600 CHAdeMo chargers spread out. I hope all car manufacturers adopt the Supercharger network and we will all be much happier. But that's not going to happen for a long time. In the mean time I want to have that darn adapter so I can use what is out there. That's all.

I think you are reading the sentiment incorrectly.
I am not at all against CHAdeMO. I just think that neither of these comparisons is apples to apples:
a) "there are 633 CHAdeMO chargers and 99 superchargers" (that completely misses the point that once there are more users, the likelihood of arriving at one of those 633 CHAdeMO adapters and having it taken is MUCH higher than the likelihood of arriving at a supercharger and having all stalls be taken)
b) "there are 633 CHAdeMO charging units and 587 supercharger charging units" (as you point out, that undervalues the availability of a CHAdeMO adapter "near where you need it")

And since this thread is about comparing the two eco systems (for lack of a better word), I think that's relevant

And it has nothing to do with the usefulness of the adapter. I think it will be extremely useful. But this thread is no longer about the adapter.

 

[David99]

And it has nothing to do with the usefulness of the adapter. I think it will be extremely useful. But this thread is no longer about the adapter.

I didn't start this thread. I posted it in the CHAdeMo adapter thread expressing how useful the adapter. Someone broke it out of the other discussion and made it appear I started this and gave it a completely misleading title.

 

[dsm363]

I didn't start this thread. I posted it in the CHAdeMo adapter thread expressing how useful the adapter. Someone broke it out of the other discussion and made it appear I started this and gave it a completely misleading title.

I added a note to the first post. Don't think the title is off base but if that have a better one let me know.

 

[Dave EV]

In another spin-off of this thread, TonyWilliams mentioned that Nissan talks about an average cost of $48k to install a single CHAdeMO charger.
I don't think anyone has been able to get a better handle on the cost of installing a supercharger.

RMI has some data on public charging infrastructure costs:

Pulling Back the Veil on EV Charging Station Costs


They list the cost of a Curbside DCQC station at just under $60k on average. I assume that Nissan's lower cost comes from using their hardware which is cheaper than other stations.

The largest portions of cost are the charging station itself and 480V transformer at ~$23k and ~$17k. Next up is labor, which would primarily be trenching/etc costs.

I'd love to figure out what the 2 charger, single cabinet on a pallet "temporary" or "mobile" units that they are using in France right now would cost...

I'd bet that hardware is around $50k. Other costs would be similar to the RMI quoted costs. Total cost - probably under $100k. The biggest benefit that Tesla gets is economies of scale by installing multiple stations at a single location which should significantly reduce transformer and labor costs. Also since Tesla manufacturers their own charging equipment, that likely saves 30-40% off hardware costs that would normally go towards another company's profit margin.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I dont believe the rivalry is between Superchargers as most chademo is ~25 KW and as such it competes more with the HPWC, and High amperage J1772. Part of the competition is that it costs much more to install. I'm not against it, but the numbers make it less attractive.

I don't think even a large minority are 25kW. All the Nissan branded ones are 44kW. The rest are mostly 62.5kW (500 volts * 125 amps), however a LEAF, Tesla Model S, or any of the other 400-ish volt cars will only pull the maximum 125 amps max * 400 volts = 50kW.

A few other facts to consider when comparing to Supercharger. Those don't operate with two cars on one charger (the "A" and "B" stall) at 120kW each, but instead some number for each car that totals 120kW. So, it's easy to imagine one car on CHAdeMO sucking down 50kW and the Supercharger only getting 60kW.

Finally, all the DC quick chargers are the same when the battery gets near full and starts slowing the charge speed.

- - - Updated - - -

The largest portions of cost are the charging station itself and 480V transformer at ~$23k and ~$17k. Next up is labor, which would primarily be trenching/etc costs.

Tesla uses 500KVA transformers for the four 120kW Supercharger station (7-8 stalls). It's not much more money than the far smaller ones:

Reconditioned Price: $26,425.00
Product: Oil Transformer
Manufacturer:
Stock No.: 11-4159
Phase: 3
KVA: 500
Primary Voltage: 22860/13200
Secondary Voltage: 208/120
Taps: 2+2-
Temp. Rating (ºC): 65
Impedance Pct.:
Serial Number:
Description: Oil Transformer, Stock No. 11-4159, 3 Phase, KVA 500, KVA 500, Primary Voltage 22860/13200, Secondary Voltage 208/120, 2+2- Taps, 65 ºC Temp Rating, Impedance Pct., Serial No. , Reconditioned Price $26,425.00

 

[techmaven]

Fundamentally, Nissan did every EV owner a huge disservice in the U.S. by emphasizing CHAdeMO DCFC at this stage with their Nissan Leaf at the expense of higher amperage L2 charging.

The charging future of BEV's depends on two things: high speed charging for long distance travel and widespread destination charging. 50 kW CHAdeMO accomplishes neither and costs way too much. At $50k+ installed, it is too slow to really facilitate long distance travel and too costly for widespread destination charging. It is basically a huge waste of taxpayer dollars.

Further, by installing slow J1772's in the Leaf, we ended up with lots of very slow L2 charging. If they had put in an 80A J1772 in the Leaf at the start, then it is likely that we would have had much faster J1772's installed all over the place instead of the 24A and 30A varieties. At 80A, a J1772 charger is only half the speed of most Leaf's charging off CHAdeMO. This would have been gentler on the Leaf's initial pack design and it would have lowered the install costs dramatically.

Even now, it makes more sense for Nissan to divert subsidies from impractical 50-60kW CHAdeMO into retrofitting Leafs with 80A J1772 in the U.S.

For hotels, CHAdeMO makes even less sense. Most patrons are likely to be there for at least 6 hours, if not 8-10 hours. Does it really make a difference for Leaf to be charged in 30 minutes or 2 hours or 4 hours in that case? Further, given the small size and poor chemistry of the initial Nissan Leaf battery pack design, CHAdeMO EVSE's are often installed at the wrong places to facilitate long distance travel.

Fast forward to 2018. Nissan will likely to have shipped an Infiniti BEV with NMC chemistry, and is likely to ship a Leaf with the same NMC chemistry. It is likely the battery pack capacity increases significantly. At that point, each and every existing CHAdeMO EVSE is obsolete, an anachronism of Nissan's early foray into electric vehicles. They'll be looking to install 100+ kW EVSE's into places that actually make sense to support long distance travel. The spacing would be different, the number of plugs per station would be different, and so forth. It would have to be a replica of the Tesla Supercharger network.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Fundamentally, Nissan did every EV owner a huge disservice in the U.S. by emphasizing CHAdeMO DCFC at this stage with their Nissan Leaf at the expense of higher amperage L2 charging.

CHAdeMO makes sense if you consider the Leaf's original primary market, Japan, where 50kW is pretty much good enough for even "long distance" travel (given the size of the country). Also, given the relatively small battery, the pack probably can't even support faster charging than that.

The problem with high power L2 charging is that it spreads the cost to the onboard charger. 3kW vs 6kW probably isn't that different in cost, but 20kW likely is.

Fast forward to 2018. Nissan will likely to have shipped an Infiniti BEV with NMC chemistry, and is likely to ship a Leaf with the same NMC chemistry. It is likely the battery pack capacity increases significantly. At that point, each and every existing CHAdeMO EVSE is obsolete, an anachronism of Nissan's early foray into electric vehicles. They'll be looking to install 100+ kW EVSE's into places that actually make sense to support long distance travel. The spacing would be different, the number of plugs per station would be different, and so forth. It would have to be a replica of the Tesla Supercharger network.

I'm also curious what will happen to CHAdeMO with the release of NMC chemistry. The easiest move would be to bump to 100kW charging (which CHAdeMO can support at the max), but moving beyond that might require a different plug standard.

 

[Dave EV]

CHAdeMO makes sense if you consider the Leaf's original primary market, Japan, where 50kW is pretty much good enough for even "long distance" travel (given the size of the country). Also, given the relatively small battery, the pack probably can't even support faster charging than that.

Considering the design of the LEAF, 50 kW is more than enough. I mean, it takes 20-30 minutes to get back up to 80% and pick up another 40-50 miles of range, so just how many times are you going to do that in a day - especially considering how hot the pack gets with the lack of active cooling.

Realistically you might do this twice a day - and even then, 25 kW max charging only nominally slows down charging since you can only charge significantly faster than that from a low SOC. A typical QC for a LEAF will deliver around 10-12 kWh and take 20-30 minutes. The average charge rate is only about 25 kW!

The problem with high power L2 charging is that it spreads the cost to the onboard charger. 3kW vs 6kW probably isn't that different in cost, but 20kW likely is.

Well, Tesla is the benchmark here - adding another 10 kW OBC only costs $1500 from the factory. Brusa's 3.3 kW OBC costs ~$2400. I think that a decent number of EV owners would be highly likely to jump to 20 kW L2 charging if it only cost an additional $1500. Well, at least people who live near 70-80A L2 stations would. I think you'd find that many owners would do it simply because it would allow the ability to charge from empty to near full in an hour. Even if you could only do that at home for the time being, it could add a lot of utility.

I'm also curious what will happen to CHAdeMO with the release of NMC chemistry. The easiest move would be to bump to 100kW charging (which CHAdeMO can support at the max), but moving beyond that might require a different plug standard.

Given that current 125A/50 kW CHAdeMO is mostly underutilized with current vehicles, I don't see manufacturers rushing out to build 200A/100kW CHAdeMO stations. Perhaps only if they start seeing a lot of Model S's using 50 kW stations, but it seems to be too small a market, currently and demand charges make it too expensive to operate such a station. I think in most cases they'd be better off installing two 50 kW stations of a single 100 kW station, which is what would inevitably happen.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The problem with high power L2 charging is that it spreads the cost to the onboard charger. 3kW vs 6kW probably isn't that different in cost, but 20kW likely is.

I foresee a day when we don't have ANY charger in the car. It's a bit silly to think we need to lug around the weight and cost of these chargers in every car.

At home, that same 10kW or dual 20kW charger that is in your car now can be on the wall of your garage. It would connect to the Model S exactly the same way that you plug in now.

When you're out on the road, the 100,000 DC charging stations throughout the country (same number as current oil stations) will be happy to charge you up quickly.

I'm also curious what will happen to CHAdeMO with the release of NMC chemistry. The easiest move would be to bump to 100kW charging (which CHAdeMO can support at the max), but moving beyond that might require a different plug standard.

They can put a different 100kW plug on CHAdeMO that is reverse compatible. The 100kW charger wouldn't necessarily power an older car, but a newer car could accept either the older or newer version.

It can even go above 100kW. Just lengthen the pins and sockets, just like Tesla did with the Menekkes plug. Easy.