Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[David99]

This whole thing might just be about making sure the batteries make it beyond the warranty period.

 

[st50maint]

This whole thing might just be about making sure the batteries make it beyond the warranty period.

I wonder what would happen if they had kept the battery warranty at 4 years like it originally was. Therefore most cars affected would already be out of warranty.

Would Tesla have the right to make these changes?
Would Tesla have the obligation to make these changes if it was a safety issue?

 

[Droschke]

This whole thing might just be about making sure the batteries make it beyond the warranty period.

Yup, that's the trick ...

 

[Droschke]

I wonder what would happen if they had kept the battery warranty at 4 years like it originally was. Therefore most cars affected would already be out of warranty.

Would Tesla have the right to make these changes?
Would Tesla have the obligation to make these changes if it was a safety issue?

Only the court of law can answer these questions. Right now, it's not even clear who owns the car and what defines the level of ownership, if indeed the existing laws haven't been violated already!

 

[jensk2]

MIne went back down to 208 on the charge yesterday so its gone from 228/9 every time to 208 to 220 to 208... Super strange... So I also received a TPMS error "cannot read Tire pressures fault" today, I was like ok let me just reset them, but that option no longer exists (it has been removed in V10). So I decided to select the new option of changing the wheels and clicking Confirm This promptly rebooted both screens and once they recover I now have TPMS system error, Stability control Error and traction control error (I have no Regen and the Stability control light is now on with the TPMS light).. These don't go away with a reboot. Service has been scheduled as my car has basically gone to *sugar* since V10.. First appointment December 6th!! whats the betting I come away disappointed, Oh how things have changed in 6 years......

Hi, the systems 'turned off' seems to be the systems that rely on accurate wheel rotation of all four wheels?
Potentially an ABS Sensor or its wiring is damaged?

(Searched forum and found this: https://teslamotorsclub.com/.../abs-stability-regen-and.../

 

[Droschke]

Perhaps the plan is, once again to advertise tomorrow’s technology today (even faster charging speeds), with the safety of knowing if it all goes wrong, they can just quietly restrict the speed the car charges via an over-the-air software update.

^^^ That has been the plan from the start. We are the first recipient/generation of it.

 

[Droschke]

This whole thing might just be about making sure the batteries make it beyond the warranty period.

David - That was our hypothesis from the early days when this thread started.

 

[bhzmark]

please explain why and how you have inside access to Tesla that none of the rest ofus haven't.

I dont and never said I did.

 

[Chaserr]

Technically were second generation chargegate. 90 packs were gen 1. Tesla tried to keep it quiet the too.

What we learned is they will throttle every battery eventually.

 

[BigNick]

I think there are two issues here. Being capped (in this thread) refers to the battery capacity being capped, which results in it effectively being smaller. Specifically it appears Tesla changed the upper level at which the BMS stops the cell taking on more charge. My 70kWh was capped to 60kWh. Think of it as a 70 gallon fuel tank being replaced overnight with a 60 gallon fuel tank, and the effect that change might have on things like range, percentage consumption etc. It sounds like you have dodged this one.

Then there is chargegate (not the subject of this thread, but closely related). Many owners have reported significant throttling of their chargerate. This issue affects a much wider spectrum of vehicles, and many more owners. Sounds like you may be one of them. Tesla, as usual, has declined to give any explanation. There is a growing suspicion that it is related, in some way, to the amount of DC Fast Charging (DCFC) the car has endured. In the old days, as you describe, it used to be if you pulled up to a Supercharger with 60% or less, the car took almost as much power as as available. Sometimes in excess of 100 kWs. As the SoC increased, so the tapering became more severe. At high SoC the tapering was really severe. There is a view that whilst the top end tapering did the business, the mid to lower end tapering may have been insufficient and that the old level of high powered Charging was not good for the battery. Not actually damaging it, but effectively wearing out cells faster than expected. Now, charge rates below 60% are much more restricted. In my old 70 kWh battery (read 60 kWh battery) I do not get above 50 kWs at 50% SoC. it used to be noticeably higher. There is no doubt this will be much kinder in the Battery, and those batteries affected, will wear out at a slower rate. They might even last beyond the 8 year warranty date now. Who knows. I certainly don’t.

Only a theory of course but it does seem to explain why so many cars are reporting these low charge rates. Curious though that Tesla are still talking about introducing even higher powered Superchargers. Perhaps the plan is, once again to advertise tomorrow’s technology today (even faster charging speeds), with the safety of knowing if it all goes wrong, they can just quietly restrict the speed the car charges via an over-the-air software update.

I note the revised New Car Warranty now requires owners to upload all updates in order to maintain the Warranty. The old one, the one I have on my car, does not have this requirement. That could of course just be a coincidence.

It sounds as though Supercharging itself wasn’t bad for our batteries IF the cells were warm AND the charge rate wasn’t excessive.

But the older BMS software allowed SCing of packs at too-low temperatures AND at too-high charge rates. Even if (and that is an “if” the size of the moon) Tesla replaces the defective batteries, I don’t think full SC speeds will ever return.

TM-Spy displays the total amount of DC charging on my pack as 560 kWh. Maybe about 8 full SC charges. At least half of that was mine, from after the throttling of SC speeds introduced in 2019.16.x.

I know my car came from the Houston area, so not likely to have been subjected to rapid charging when cold. And with TM-Spy now showing the total amount of DC charging being relatively low, I’m pretty sure my battery is in relatively good shape after 4.5 years and 35K miles.

 

[Droschke]

It sounds as though Supercharging itself wasn’t bad for our batteries IF the cells were warm AND the charge rate wasn’t excessive.
But the older BMS software allowed SCing of packs at too-low temperatures AND at too-high charge rates.

I agree. Tesla's faulty BMS has crippled our batteries. This whole issue is about the damaged batteries and the owners have nothing to do with it. The owners are unable to control the battery temperature and the SuC charging speed. That was supposed to be governed by the BMS, which we paid for. And yet, we have have been forced to pay a price by losing our range. It's a double insult: I damage your property but you have pay for the Scotch tape I've used to fix it. Totally unacceptable.

 

[DJRas]

It sounds as though Supercharging itself wasn’t bad for our batteries IF the cells were warm AND the charge rate wasn’t excessive.

But the older BMS software allowed SCing of packs at too-low temperatures AND at too-high charge rates. Even if (and that is an “if” the size of the moon) Tesla replaces the defective batteries, I don’t think full SC speeds will ever return.

TM-Spy displays the total amount of DC charging on my pack as 560 kWh. Maybe about 8 full SC charges. At least half of that was mine, from after the throttling of SC speeds introduced in 2019.16.x.

I know my car came from the Houston area, so not likely to have been subjected to rapid charging when cold. And with TM-Spy now showing the total amount of DC charging being relatively low, I’m pretty sure my battery is in relatively good shape after 4.5 years and 35K miles.

As a point of reference.
My car has over 37,000 kWh DC charging and 12,000 kWh AC charging with 151,000 miles.

 

[David99]

Supercharging is no doubt more detrimental to the battery than slower charge rates. The fact that Tesla has significantly reduced the charge speed of all older cars is proof of that.

 

[swegman]

Or maybe Tesla hopes that the owners of these older cars (of which I am one), which have free unlimited supercharging, get frustrated and stop supercharging.

 

[faughtz]

Or maybe Tesla hopes that the owners of these older cars (of which I am one), which have free unlimited supercharging, get frustrated and stop supercharging.

Not working for me; I always supercharge.

Just takes more than twice as long since I now always try to charge to the new 100%, usually at least 2 hours.

(interestingly I no longer get the reminder about not trip charging more than 3 times in a row)

 

[gmo43]

As a point of reference.
My car has over 37,000 kWh DC charging and 12,000 kWh AC charging with 151,000 miles.

Any update on mediation you would be able to share with all of us?

 

[DJRas]

Nothing to report yet.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

It sounds as though Supercharging itself wasn’t bad for our batteries IF the cells were warm AND the charge rate wasn’t excessive.

But the older BMS software allowed SCing of packs at too-low temperatures AND at too-high charge rates. Even if (and that is an “if” the size of the moon) Tesla replaces the defective batteries, I don’t think full SC speeds will ever return.

TM-Spy displays the total amount of DC charging on my pack as 560 kWh. Maybe about 8 full SC charges. At least half of that was mine, from after the throttling of SC speeds introduced in 2019.16.x.

I know my car came from the Houston area, so not likely to have been subjected to rapid charging when cold. And with TM-Spy now showing the total amount of DC charging being relatively low, I’m pretty sure my battery is in relatively good shape after 4.5 years and 35K miles.

Whilst the majority (80%) of my charging over the past 3 years/50,000 miles has been DCFC charging, a great deal of it has been on lower powered Rapid DC (typically 38-40 kW), as the Rapid Charger was several miles closer than my nearest Supercharger. And I live in UK so it’s hardly Nordic cold. So I don’t think it has suffered from too much cold charging, or much very high powered charging. Although I do remember in the first 3 years Supercharger rates of 90kW-100+ kWs. Its now nowhere near that level. It does make me suspicious that the tapering was insufficient, and probably that the cells were not as robust as was thought.

If only Tesla had warned us, I could very easily have changed to a much lower (and more convenient) AC charging regime. All they said was try and keep your operating limits away from max/min, so I had a normal 25%-80% band. It seems following that was insufficient to avoid the current issue.

 

[alloverx]

Not sure they keep track of level of DC charging; just one bucket for DC counting I assume.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

Supercharging is no doubt more detrimental to the battery than slower charge rates. The fact that Tesla has significantly reduced the charge speed of all older cars is proof of that.

That’s probably not in debate. Such a shame that when Tesla were giving charging advice to new owners they failed to mention it. Quite the reverse in fact. I’m pretty sure they said, hey buy our cars, we have this amazing Supercharging network that is not only free, forever(!), is all over the place, and is powered by 120 kW chargepoints that will charge your car in less than an hour. Seems like that have now discovered that such advice had a downside.

If, even with the benefit of hindsight, that advice now seems to be flawed, I am unclear why there should be any debate at all about where the culpability for the effects of that advice lie. Removing features, that owners paid more for, in order to mitigate the effects of that poor advice, seems more than just unfair. Not admitting you made an honest mistake and putting the blame on the user is an appalling way to do business.

Being a Tesla owner means you get stopped and spoken to by complete strangers on a regular basis, wanting to know more details about the car. I invariably say the car is marvellous, but the same can’t be said for the company. I always recommend, in the strongest possible terms, that they look elsewhere as the company has proven it cannot be trusted, appears willing to do everything in its power to avoid its responsibilities, and it’s famous warranties appear to not be worth the paper they are written on. And they clearly have no compunction about changing the car's specification, without permission and, perhaps even more tellingly, without even telling the owners they have done so, many years after the purchase of the car. And if you object, you have to be prepared to go to court as the company are likely to just deny everything.

An ex Range Rover salesman once told me he wouldn’t take a Range Rover if he was offered one for free (due to its poor reliability record). I know exactly how he feels.