Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

[stopcrazypp]

If you look at from the point of view of "they never said" then none of the specs ever published would be worth anything...When car hp is published, it is reasonable to assume the car can produce that power without modifications.

I've agreed to disagree on this issue already a long while back. Long story short is that horsepower has always been advertised in reference to engines/motors and never as a "car" (if it was advertised as a car, the only number any automaker should publish is wheel horsepower and nothing else). This number is determined with various test standards that takes into account various attachments to the engines/motors (not all of which have to be the ones sold with the car) and under specified test conditions.

Anyways, perhaps I should have not added any commentary (but couldn't resist). The main thing is seeing CAN numbers doesn't really provide anything else different from what is seen in REST API in terms of this general subject. It does provide a look at how the power is split and has some torque figures, but for the combined numbers, we already know from REST API.

I'm more curious how the Norway complaint went. Supposedly the next step can generate a binding decision and then after that Tesla or the owners would have to go to court if either side disagreed. There may be more information shown during this next step (we did see the ECE R85 certifications for the motors from the previous Tesla letter).

 

[lolachampcar]

This idea that Tesla does not know EVERYTHING about what they build is simply silly. I do not mind debating, but it is really hard to debate the obvious especially for 257 pages.

 

[lolachampcar]

1 Foot Roll Out as seen by the car's own data

WK was kind enough to provide some CAN bus message decoding which allowed me to generate a CAN bus data logger. In performance mode, it can log 100 samples a second (max CAN bus data rate) which makes for some interesting data. Specifically, it made me think of my European friends and their 1 foot roll out issues. What does MS do in that one foot? Well, here is the step integrated time/distance for my P85D. PM me if you want to source data (parts shown below) in its entirety and I'll email you a dropbox link.

By my calculations

0267.13 100.0 +060.00 +177.7 +153.5 285.61 +0336.3 096.0
0263.65 100.0 +000.25 +388.5 +242.2 373.20 -0204.3 076.2
.....3.48 seconds without roll out
of which 0.21 seconds is used to traverse the first 1 foot.

Time......TPS....Speed....R_Tq....F_Tq.....BatV.....BatI.....Pwr
0263.48 100.0 +000.00 +043.7 +019.3 385.14 -0038.2 014.7
0263.49 100.0 +000.00 +056.9 +044.0 384.14 -0055.0 021.1
0263.50 100.0 +000.00 +076.7 +061.9 383.37 -0069.5 026.6
0263.51 100.0 +000.00 +106.2 +078.3 382.76 -0077.0 029.4
0263.52 100.0 +000.00 +144.5 +096.4 382.25 -0086.7 033.1
0263.53 100.0 +000.00 +189.1 +116.7 381.49 -0095.3 036.3
0263.54 100.0 +000.00 +229.9 +137.5 380.62 -0107.1 040.7
0263.55 100.0 +000.00 +241.9 +157.1 380.25 -0112.3 042.7
0263.56 100.0 +000.00 +231.7 +173.6 379.62 -0118.3 044.9
0263.58 100.0 +000.00 +242.4 +186.6 377.98 -0144.3 054.5
0263.59 100.0 +000.00 +272.7 +193.6 377.11 -0151.0 056.9
0263.60 100.0 +000.00 +296.4 +200.6 376.35 -0161.9 060.9
0263.61 100.0 +000.00 +310.8 +210.3 375.47 -0173.7 065.2
0263.62 100.0 +000.00 +326.7 +220.5 374.97 -0185.1 069.4
0263.63 100.0 +000.00 +346.8 +229.7 374.45 -0192.6 072.1
0263.64 100.0 +000.00 +369.3 +237.4 373.59 -0198.9 074.3
0263.65 100.0 +000.25 +388.5 +242.2 373.20 -0204.3 076.2
0263.66 100.0 +000.45 +400.8 +243.2 372.59 -0211.9 078.9
0263.67 100.0 +000.65 +408.7 +241.3 371.95 -0219.4 081.6
0263.68 100.0 +000.85 +416.9 +238.7 370.95 -0231.4 085.8
0263.69 100.0 +001.15 +426.1 +238.4 370.45 -0245.0 090.7
0263.70 100.0 +001.40 +433.5 +237.4 369.82 -0250.5 092.6
0263.71 100.0 +001.70 +439.7 +233.6 368.81 -0256.4 094.5
0263.72 100.0 +001.95 +444.5 +230.6 368.81 -0261.9 096.5
0263.73 100.0 +002.25 +447.3 +228.6 368.28 -0267.0 098.3
0263.74 100.0 +002.55 +448.8 +227.5 367.42 -0275.8 101.3
0263.75 100.0 +002.80 +450.2 +226.9 366.77 -0282.1 103.4
0263.76 100.0 +003.35 +450.8 +226.2 366.27 -0287.9 105.4
0263.77 100.0 +003.60 +451.3 +225.5 365.39 -0298.5 109.0
0263.78 100.0 +003.90 +451.5 +224.4 364.75 -0306.9 111.9
0263.79 100.0 +004.15 +451.3 +225.1 363.50 -0321.1 116.7
0263.80 100.0 +004.45 +451.5 +224.7 363.25 -0335.8 121.9
0263.81 100.0 +004.70 +451.7 +224.4 362.37 -0342.5 124.1
0263.82 100.0 +004.95 +448.8 +223.8 362.00 -0351.6 127.2
0263.83 100.0 +005.25 +447.1 +224.4 360.74 -0362.5 130.7
0263.84 100.0 +005.50 +446.2 +224.9 359.72 -0373.6 134.3
0263.85 100.0 +005.75 +447.1 +225.8 358.73 -0397.9 142.7
0263.86 100.0 +006.05 +448.4 +225.5 357.47 -0408.3 145.9
0263.87 100.0 +006.35 +444.7 +223.1 356.59 -0426.0 151.9
0263.88 100.0 +006.55 +428.1 +219.6 355.59 -0437.0 155.3
0263.89 100.0 +006.75 +413.9 +214.6 355.21 -0439.8 156.2
0263.90 100.0 +006.95 +406.0 +209.4 353.82 -0450.3 159.3
0263.91 100.0 +007.15 +405.1 +203.5 350.93 -0493.9 173.3
0263.92 100.0 +007.35 +397.3 +193.9 351.44 -0493.6 173.4
0263.93 100.0 +007.55 +391.2 +188.6 349.43 -0519.3 181.4
0263.95 100.0 +007.75 +380.0 +185.4 350.19 -0518.0 181.3
0263.96 100.0 +007.90 +371.5 +183.8 351.20 -0481.1 168.9
0263.97 100.0 +008.10 +357.3 +182.7 352.72 -0488.1 172.1
data edited for space
0267.03 100.0 +059.05 +179.4 +154.7 285.87 +0325.1 092.9
0267.04 100.0 +059.15 +179.0 +154.5 285.48 +0337.0 096.2
0267.05 100.0 +059.25 +179.4 +154.5 285.74 +0330.3 094.3
0267.06 100.0 +059.40 +180.8 +154.8 285.49 +0346.1 098.8
0267.07 100.0 +059.50 +179.7 +154.7 285.99 +0334.2 095.5
0267.08 100.0 +059.60 +177.7 +154.1 284.98 +0329.9 094.0
0267.09 100.0 +059.70 +177.1 +153.5 285.99 +0333.4 095.3
0267.10 100.0 +059.80 +177.0 +153.4 284.98 +0330.8 094.2
0267.12 100.0 +059.90 +177.9 +153.2 285.24 +0339.2 096.7
0267.13 100.0 +060.00 +177.7 +153.5 285.61 +0336.3 096.0
0267.14 100.0 +060.10 +176.2 +153.7 285.49 +0323.0 092.2
0267.15 100.0 +060.20 +174.0 +153.5 285.88 +0339.0 096.9
0267.16 100.0 +060.30 +174.2 +153.0 286.01 +0334.8 095.7
SoC 089.0 BatT 25.55 BatOdo 015259

This PDF is the step integrated time speed data for the first one foot.
Please feel free to correct my math/approach if I am doing something silly.

 

[Kalllagtunet]

Thanks for the data lol.

Interesting to see that Teslas "defintion" of 0-100 kph is actually 10-100kph...

 

[AWDtsla]

They could surely make the ramp to max torque faster. I wonder if they're doing that for comfort or to protect the driveline from lash. Try launch mode.

 

[MarcG]

Time......TPS....Speed....R_Tq....F_Tq.....BatV.....BatI.....Pwr
0263.93 100.0 +007.55 +391.2 +188.6 349.43 -0519.3 181.4

Thanks for sharing the data with us!

I'm assuming that BatV.....BatI.....Pwr is the battery's voltage, current, and power respectively.
If so, the voltages make sense for the most part, but I'm struggling to understand why the current doesn't seem to go beyond 519.3 Amps?

I've seen current draws of up to 1300 Amps (in my non-Ludi P85D as of now), which is the current limit for Insane - 1500 being the current limit for Ludicrous.
The Power values seem to just be V x I, so having current at a max of 519.3A somewhat explains the max power of 181.4kW.

Unless you have much more data between 8 and 59 mph that shows higher current draws (and hence power)?

 

[lolachampcar]

You are correct on the current, voltage and power but the current values are indeed weird. I'll go back and look at the whole file and try to figure out where I went wrong. I know I have seen current values way over 1000 using my IXXAT logger so I'm doing something wrong on my logger's conversion on the fly.

looked further into the data and I f'd something up at 1000 amps on one of my edits
0264.55 100.0 +021.00 +399.9 +223.4 316.55 -0968.4 306.5
0264.56 100.0 +021.20 +401.4 +223.4 314.40 -0958.0 301.1
0264.58 100.0 +021.40 +401.4 +224.9 314.28 -0969.8 304.7
0264.59 100.0 +021.65 +402.5 +224.7 314.27 -0978.7 307.5
0264.60 100.0 +021.85 +403.2 +224.7 313.89 -0993.0 311.6
0264.61 100.0 +022.10 +404.5 +224.7 314.01 +0630.8 198.0 current does not go from 993 amps draw to 630 regen - the programmer fouled something up
0264.62 100.0 +022.30 +404.1 +224.2 312.24 +0614.1 191.7
0264.63 100.0 +022.55 +406.0 +224.4 311.99 +0598.0 186.5
0264.64 100.0 +022.75 +405.4 +224.5 311.74 +0587.2 183.0
0264.65 100.0 +023.00 +405.4 +223.6 310.49 +0569.1 176.6
0264.66 100.0 +023.20 +406.2 +223.6 309.23 +0534.4 165.2
0264.67 100.0 +023.45 +407.5 +224.7 308.47 +0524.9 161.9
0264.68 100.0 +023.65 +408.4 +224.4 307.99 +0511.3 157.4
0264.69 100.0 +023.90 +408.4 +224.9 307.10 +0505.5 155.2

 

[rns-e]

Interesting - thank you for sharing

 

[kennybobby]

This PDF is the step integrated time speed data for the first one foot.
Please feel free to correct my math/approach if I am doing something silly.

PDF looks good to me, don't see any errors in that.

 

[lolachampcar]

The pdf relied on time and instantaneous speed and was not affected by my brain fart.

I believe I am now correctly handling fifteen bit signed integers with offset. Easy to do in Visual Studio; not so easy in a micro controller.

This was a 0_60 run in the rain (really coming down) which slowed the car to something like 3.76 seconds without roll out. Funny that the best I see is around 369 KW ( about 492 hp) but I guess that is what others are seeing. Drop box link sent to those that showed interest. The file is exactly as the data comes off the brick.

0161.34 100.0 +059.55 +174.0 +154.8 280.39 -1310.6 367.4
0161.35 100.0 +059.65 +172.0 +154.8 280.51 -1309.8 367.4
0161.36 100.0 +059.75 +170.3 +154.5 281.38 -1311.9 369.1
0161.37 100.0 +059.85 +171.4 +153.9 281.51 -1292.4 363.8
0161.38 100.0 +059.95 +173.5 +154.1 280.77 -1296.7 364.0
0161.39 100.0 +060.05 +174.2 +154.1 280.78 -1289.5 362.0
0161.40 100.0 +060.15 +172.4 +153.7 280.53 -1305.9 366.3
0161.41 100.0 +060.25 +169.6 +153.0 280.39 -1306.9 366.4
0161.42 100.0 +060.35 +168.3 +152.6 282.66 -1305.1 368.8
0161.43 100.0 +060.45 +169.0 +152.4 281.53 -1296.1 364.8
0161.44 100.0 +060.55 +169.6 +152.1 282.02 -1294.9 365.1
0161.45 100.0 +060.65 +169.8 +151.9 281.27 -1296.2 364.5
SoC 078.3 BatT 25.08 BatOdo 015281

 

[MarcG]

Funny that the best I see is around 369 KW ( about 492 hp) but I guess that is what others are seeing.

Thanks for the updated data. I noticed your SoC was around 78%, which may explain the lower power figures.

When you're at 90% again, turn on Max Battery Power, wait till it's ready, and see what you get!

 

[lolachampcar]

I plan on going through a series of 0-60 runs from 100% SoC downwards with and without maxBat enabled. The logs record SoC, battery temp and battery odometer after each run. I place a compilation of the runs in a dropbox for those interested in the data. In addition, we might have the data available in graphical form as well

I'm also looking forward to having CAN logs directly tied to 1/4 mile time slips from this upcoming weekend at the drag strip. Understanding the correlation will allow testing away from the strip.

Lastly, it has been raining a bit around here all day. I've got some really good 0-60 runs with major traction events. I'll post relevant bits and, if desired, drop box them as well.

 

[wk057]

With my pack at 100% charge sitting at 51C (after a supercharge that didn't seem to be running the A/C compressor, which I thought was weird) my max power was 406kW (544 HP at the battery). Quickly tapered back to the 300s within ~20 minutes of normal driving. (Wasn't logging, was just watching the diagnostic screens)

 

[lolachampcar]

That is right in line with attritional data I've been collecting. It also agrees with my RC experience where the models have tremendous power when first coming off the charger warm and topped off.

 

[chickensevil]

That is right in line with attritional data I've been collecting. It also agrees with my RC experience where the models have tremendous power when first coming off the charger warm and topped off.

So then could you in theory get the best 0-60 time immediately after a supercharge? Once you are able to correlate the on the track vs the off the track times, it would be great to hear what the 0-60 time is and the max power draw on an immediate run. I think that is likely to exhibit the best condition to state what the real limit of the car is which can then be matched against the stated powers from Tesla.

I also greatly appreciate you taking the time to figure out what is actually happening in the first foot. Crazy how the car is going 8-9MPH in such a short distance.

 

[lolachampcar]

Thanks!
Actually, all credit really needs to go to WK.... He figured out the decoding for all the CAN bus traffic which made doing a proper little logger kinda of a walk in the park. Plus, it had been about five years since I touched the code. It was time to exercise the brain a bit.

I've got ten cables coming in for the MS diagnostic connector and have ten of my logger boards about here somewhere. The goal is to make up some so that others can test as well. All the data is recorded in a simple text file so there is no need for post processing apart from needing to graph the stuff. The logger looks like a USB stick to any computer so it is easy to pluck the data off.

I'll continue to work out the kinks until the cables come in.

 

[McRat]

Some notes about CANbus datalogging and "rollout".

When using dragstrip timing equipment to do performance testing this "rollout" distance can be virtually eliminated if you want. There are 2 staging lights. When you trip both lights, this is a standard staging, and the timer does not start for about a foot. When both lights are lit, roll a bit further until the top light on the tree goes out, but the 2nd light is still lit. This is called Deep Staging, and if you are at a dragstrip, write DEEP on the windshield with window marker to let the track officials know this was intentional. The timing equipment will start with very little movement of the car.

CANbus data requests are processed when the ECM has time for it, it's a second priority process for the computer. You can't always trust them 100%, but it works well enough. The fewer items you put in the request for PIDs (information variables) the more accurate the data tends to be.
In particular MPH can be erratic for 2 reasons. One is the CANbus delay, two is reading the wheel speeds of the car, and there is no guarantee at the start the tires are not spinning. If I blow off the tires by launching too hard, the speed will instantly shoot up then level off, sometimes itt will fall briefly if the tires grab abruptly.

If an AWD car has enough power, yes it will spin all four tires during the launch.

Dedicated data logging equipment that doesn't use the CANbus is the best... If you've got the reason and the money, and require accurate information for fine tuning a vehicle. But CAN logging works fine for the hobbyist.

 

[Andyw2100]

So then could you in theory get the best 0-60 time immediately after a supercharge? Once you are able to correlate the on the track vs the off the track times, it would be great to hear what the 0-60 time is and the max power draw on an immediate run. I think that is likely to exhibit the best condition to state what the real limit of the car is which can then be matched against the stated powers from Tesla.

I'm pretty sure you mean "compared" above and not "matched." The word matched implies that the numbers will be equivalent. We already know with 100% certainty that won't be the case.

 

[McRat]

All things being equal, a 400HP EV will out accelerate a 400HP ICE (gasoline) car.
Why? What you are using to accelerate is average HP, aka "area under the curve".
Electric motors produce more area under the curve.

Gas engines are rated at peak HP, but they only produce that in a narrow area at the top of the powerband. The power climbs up a slope from idle to peak. The average of the horsepower in the RPM band used is what is really important.
EV motors are capable of producing max HP from very low RPM to their peak HP RPM, then falls slowly after that (EMF losses).

If Tesla used standard formulae derived from gas engine performance, it is highly possible the calculations showed the claimed numbers.

 

[Andyw2100]

All things being equal, a 400HP EV will out accelerate a 400HP ICE (gasoline) car.

Well, not if the 400 HP EV is a Tesla that really only ever makes 310 HP at the battery and even less at the wheels thanks to ECE R85.

(You're coming to this conversation a bit late, McRat, so you may not understand why that is funny*, but I expect others will.)

* Feel free to substitute "pathetic" for "funny" if you prefer.