Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

[Andyw2100]

Some of the augments in this thread about never getting the promised 691hp is not quite true, since they did get the full wrath of the 691hp motors as soon as they put the foot down,...The difference is that, with the battery limited at 463hp and all the other limitations of the battery/electric motor, the 691hp performance can not last very long.

That's simply not true.

The P85D never, at any point, generates 691 horsepower. Not for a second, not for half a second, not for a tenth of a second. Never. Never ever ever. (With apologies to Taylor Swift.)

 

[Jian Yang]

That is to do with the concept of power. Again an electric motor does not work like that! My view is people gets all the benefits of 691hp max output motor within legal speed limit, and I even think the insurance conmany should not charge the P85D with a penny less than any other 691hp ICE car.

Don't think that is the case? Give me one ICE car weights over two tones that can do 0-60 in 3.5 sec with just 463hp. So the P85D IMO is every bit of a 691hp car within legal speed.

 

[Andyw2100]

That is to do with the concept of power. Again an electric motor does not work like that! My view is people gets all the benefits of 691hp max output motor within legal speed limit, and I even think the insurance conmany should not charge the P85D with a penny less than any other 691hp ICE car.

Don't think that is the case? Give me one ICE car weights over two tones that can do 0-60 in 3.5 sec with just 500hp. So the P85D IMO is every bit of a 691hp car within legal speed.

I believe there are highways in Texas where the speed limit is 85 MPH, so your argument doesn't hold up even in the US, not to mention other countries, like Germany, where they have the Autobahn and no speed limit on parts of it. Aside from that, the car was not designed to perform only up to the speed limit. It is up to the driver if he wishes to exceed the speed limit or not. The car should be capable of performing above any arbitrarily set speed limit.

Finally, your point about insurance companies charging as much for the P85D as for an ICE 691 HP car also doesn't make sense. One of, if not the most important factor in determining insurance rates is safety. The Model S is the safest car ever built. That should justifiably earn it lower insurance rates.

 

[rns-e]

Hi rns-e, my knowledge on electric motor is actually very limited since my doctorate degrees are not in physics or mechanical engineering. But to answer this question, from my understanding, you get nothing different but all the perks and characteristics of the 691hp max output motors, before the motors hits the battery limit. These characters come definitely from the 691hp max motor which the 463/417 max output motors can never produce. This is the key difference between the ICE engine and electric motor, and if you have to use 1 figure to describe the performance of the car to the consumers, 691hp is more appropriate than 463, IMO (but nobody forces tesla to only use 1 number, and they actually used two sets of numbers for 85D on their website). Some of the augments in this thread about never getting the promised 691hp is not quite true, since they did get the full wrath of the 691hp motors as soon as they put the foot down, and at least officially on their website tesla never promised 691hp (but judgeing from the posts, there are defiantly sales staff or service staff in tesla who did not know a lot about eclectic motors and BSed when confronted with the questions they didn't know; Or some of them knew all the drills yet intensionally misled the customers). The difference is that, with the battery limited at 463hp and all the other limitations of the battery/electric motor, the 691hp performance can not last very long.

I think tesla did play tricks so that when they are busted no one can accuse tesla of lying. So they are still sticking to their story as we speak.

I feel like you are avoiding the question, but in any case I would prefer the 691 hp EV that has an energy source to actually put out 691 hp at the motor shaft - which incidentally was the car Tesla advertised and I, based on Teslas informations, thought I bought. And people are now trying to tell me the limited EV I got is in some areas comparable to an 691 hp ICE and totally forgetting I bought the WHOLE 691 hp experience, not just it's amazing off the line speed.

Hp matters at high speed as it tells us how fast it will be able to accelerate at high speeds when the torque curve is on the down slope. On the German autobahn I have experienced this first hand, it's nice but it is no where near great, as it would have been did it have the 691 hp

 

[brianman]

agazines will no longer be able to say it's a 691 or 762 hp car. Why? Because they were misled the same way as the average consumer and there's no way they're going to list 691 when they've been told it's 463.

You mean like Motor Trend that recently got tweeted by Elon?

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Yes, really. When I talk about the P85D, I don't say "it has 691 hp motor power" or "it has 691 motor horsepower", I just say "it has 691hp" or "691 horsepower". The details of the rating system is not important in the conversation. I think your attitude is different because you ultimately see 691hp as an invalid rating in the first place. I don't.

I see it differently because of a variety of reasons. One of them is that the entire premise of one of the arguments I've been hearing on this and other threads is "no, you're confusing vehicle horsepower with motor horsepower" and now you're saying "well you can use the terms interchangeably". Cognitive dissonance is the most charitable way I can try to understand such thinking.

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(With apologies to Taylor Swift.)

Funniest thing I've heard on TMC in a while.

 

[rns-e]

Tesla Motors uses Motor Trend as a authority at the bottom of the order page:

View attachment 99932

and the reason for selecting Motor Trend as the authority Tesla uses on the order page is the first review of the P85D
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/1411_2015_tesla_model_s_p85d_first_test/

As Tesla have chosen to use Motor Trend as a authority it is interesting to study the 'data card' for the P85D from Motor Trend

View attachment 99933

You mean like Motor Trend that recently got tweeted by Elon?

To be fair, that was tweeted before they added the battery limited power rating - although it may just have been seconds before. But no question that Tesla uses Motor Trend to 'verify their claims', why it is also interesting that Motor Trend has a 691 combined hp rating for the P85D

 

[Matias]

That is to do with the concept of power..

HP and W are units of power and they don't care if power comes from 100 000 hamsters running in wheel, steam engine, ICE or electric motor. P85D does not produce 691 shaft hp, no matter how you spin the issue.

 

[WarpedOne]

. P85D does not produce 691 shaft hp, no matter how

If it did, they would say it has 691 HP.
Because it does not, they said 691 HP combined motor power.

Straw man arguments all across the board.

 

[yak-55]

If it did, they would say it has 691 HP.
Because it does not, they said 691 HP combined motor power.

Straw man arguments all across the board.

I don't understand all the complications in this thread. This issue is trivially simple. The car does not (ever, ever, ever) produce 691hp. That has been verified in the field and now confirmed by the company.
That Tesla *represented* the car as producing 691 hp is the problem. Many of us, without the opportunity to perform pre-buy testing, purchased based on that fraudulent representation.

Arguments about whether or not its a wonderful car (or company), or speculating on the motivation behind the deceit, or claiming that hp doesn't (or shouldn't) matter, or the deception is justified
because life is hard for Tesla, or their "mission" is admirable, are all straw men. The issue is now plain on its face given the confirmation by the company.

 

[lolachampcar]

The hard part for me is that a car with a lot more power does not perform much better than the previous version above, say, sixty mph. If you were moving from a P85+ to a P85D, you were likely happy with the sub sixty mph performance but left scratching your head trying to get Elon's excitement about the power of the new car to mesh with the the fact that the car was kinda just like your old one above 60.

I believe Elon recognized this especially given the bit about a free OTA update to provide high speed performance not seen outside the factory. Had they been able to pull that one off, the car would have been significantly different from a performance standpoint. Regretfully, that OTA update became Ludicrous (my speculation here) at a cost of $5K. Ah, stuff happens; I can live with that. But, then the hemming and hawing starts with how Tesla is spec'ing the P85DL upgrade. We have gone from Elon's the performance difference between the 85 and 90 is not that much to the P85DL upgrade being specified as a tad bit faster to sixty (.2 seconds 0-60 which, once you have banked that .2 seconds, makes the 1/4 mile improvement a non-issue).

Without the above real world owner experience, I'd be hard pressed to think there would be as many people talking hp as there are. A similar description of P90DL ownership can be made with even a bit more disappointment as the upgrade cost $13k (capacity upgrade required to get the performance upgrade) and only the MotorTrend car has reached the quoted 1/4 mile time.

 

[vgrinshpun]

I don't understand all the complications in this thread. This issue is trivially simple. The car does not (ever, ever, ever) produce 691hp. That has been verified in the field and now confirmed by the company.
That Tesla *represented* the car as producing 691 hp is the problem. Many of us, without the opportunity to perform pre-buy testing, purchased based on that fraudulent representation.

Arguments about whether or not its a wonderful car (or company), or speculating on the motivation behind the deceit, or claiming that hp doesn't (or shouldn't) matter, or the deception is justified
because life is hard for Tesla, or their "mission" is admirable, are all straw men. The issue is now plain on its face given the confirmation by the company.

The issue is surely not trivially simple. The representation was not fraudulent.

As was mentioned more than one time, the fact that the car produces 691 motor hp without considering the limitation of the battery is responsible for the acceleration metrics that Tesla *advertised* (as opposed to the acceleration metrics that some people inferred). You are seemingly refusing to give any consideration to the fact that if P85D would have been supplied with motors that have motor horsepower merely matching the total system output horsepower of 463, it would have slower 0 to 60 acceleration and would've took longer to go 1/4 mile than 85D or P85

The fact that P85D has motor horsepower rating of 691 is responsible for such a car having roughly 50% higher torque than that of a car with similar motors, but having combined rating of 463 motor horsepower (just matching the rated battery output). This is exactly (higher output drive units - with the combined rating of 691 motor hp vs. hypothetical 463 motor hp) what the unhappy owners paid for, and exactly what they got.


The P85D with 691 motor hp and 463 hp battery output beats Audi RS7, BMW M6, MB CLS63 0 to 60mph, 0 to 100mph, and 1/4 mile. The P85D with 463 motor hp and 463 hp battery output would not.


Repeat after me: torque is **proportional** to hp for the similarly designed electric drive units (same motor speed at rated motor hp and similar motor controller). This torque produces acceleration that was advertised and is differentiating P85D from the lower variants of Tesla - 85D and P85. I understand frustration of people who incorrectly inferred P85D performance at higher speeds, but Tesla certainly did not advertise nor promote the car based on these performance metrics.

So it is relatively (not trivially) simple, but majority of people beating themselves into a pulp of righteous indignation over this are just not understanding this, with a minority who do understand, pretending that this simple truth does not exist because it does not fit their accusatory narrative.

 

[P85DEE]

The issue is surely not trivially simple. The representation was not fraudulent.

As was mentioned more than one time, the fact that the car produces 691 motor hp without considering the limitation of the battery is responsible for the acceleration metrics that Tesla *advertised* (as opposed to the acceleration metrics that some people inferred). You are seemingly refusing to give any consideration to the fact that if P85D would have been supplied with motors that have motor horsepower merely matching the total system output horsepower of 463, it would have slower 0 to 60 acceleration and would've took longer to go 1/4 mile than 85D or P85

The fact that P85D has motor horsepower rating of 691 is responsible for such a car having roughly 50% higher torque than that of a car with similar motors, but having combined rating of 463 motor horsepower (just matching the rated battery output). This is exactly (higher output drive units - with the combined rating of 691 motor hp vs. hypothetical 463 motor hp) what the unhappy owners paid for, and exactly what they got.


The P85D with 691 motor hp and 463 hp battery output beats Audi RS7, BMW M6, MB CLS63 0 to 60mph, 0 to 100mph, and 1/4 mile. The P85D with 463 motor hp and 463 hp battery output would not.


Repeat after me: torque is **proportional** to hp for the similarly designed electric drive units (same motor speed at rated motor hp and similar motor controller). This torque produces acceleration that was advertised and is differentiating P85D from the lower variants of Tesla - 85D and P85. I understand frustration of people who incorrectly inferred P85D performance at higher speeds, but Tesla certainly did not advertised nor promoted the car based on these performance metrics.

So it is relatively (not trivially) simple, but majority of people beating themselves into a pulp of righteous indignation over this are just not understanding this, with a minority who do understand, pretending that this simple truth does not exist because it does not fit their accusatory narrative.

well said.

I have wondered, since the latest leg of this discussion started, just how this car would perform if it had "463 motor power".

im thinking that it would not reach 0-60 in 3.1 seconds and probably would not have produced 11.5xx quarter mile times thus far.

 

[vgrinshpun]

well said.

I have wondered, since the latest leg of this discussion started, just how this car would perform if it had "463 motor power".

im thinking that it would not reach 0-60 in 3.1 seconds and probably would not have produced 11.5xx quarter mile times thus far.

It would not be even close. As I posted, the 0 to 60 and 1/4 mile would be slightly *slower* than 85D or P85.

 

[rns-e]

I understand frustration of people who incorrectly inferred P85D performance at higher speeds, but Tesla certainly did not advertised nor promoted the car based on these performance metrics.

Well, that is exactly what Tesla did do. If they had not done it as you claim, they would not have shown any HP ratings, but only torque numbers and 0-60 mph. There is no legal requirement anywhere in the world that forced Tesla to use the 691 hp figure or any hp figure at all for that matter.

They wanted to tell a story that would make customers buy the P85D over the 85D and even trade in their P85 for the P85D, and they used the 691 hp to tell that story, when they could have told a better and more correct story just using torque and 0-60 mph.

 

[Laserbrain]

@vgrinshpun & P85DEE: did you see Tesla's website update? The car has 469 hp. Period.

The 691 hp were purely imaginary horsepower.

A Nissan GT-R has 549 hp and does 0 - 60 mph in 2.7 seconds. In theory, if you force some extra air into the combustion chamber, you can get 1000 hp from the engine. But as long as you drive the car with the stock engine it is a 549 hp car and the 1000 hp are imaginary. And the fact that the car (with 549 hp) accelerates as fast as a 1000 hp Bugatti Veyron still does not make it a 1000 hp car.

Give me one ICE car weights over two tones that can do 0-60 in 3.5 sec with just 463hp. So the P85D IMO is every bit of a 691hp car within legal speed.

You are comparing apples with oranges. An ICE is limited by other factors during a 0 - 60 mph acceleration.

In other words: a Tesla Model S with real 691 hp would deliver a much better 0 - 60 mph performance than the P85D with real 469 hp.

The P85D never, at any point, generates 691 horsepower. Not for a second, not for half a second, not for a tenth of a second. Never. Never ever ever.

Exactly. Even Tesla admitted this.

It is weird to see that some people are still trying to spin the facts towards 691 hp.

 

[sillydriver]

The issue is surely not trivially simple. The representation was not fraudulent.

As was mentioned more than one time, the fact that the car produces 691 motor hp without considering the limitation of the battery is responsible for the acceleration metrics that Tesla *advertised* (as opposed to the acceleration metrics that some people inferred). You are seemingly refusing to give any consideration to the fact that if P85D would have been supplied with motors that have motor horsepower merely matching the total system output horsepower of 463, it would have slower 0 to 60 acceleration and would've took longer to go 1/4 mile than 85D or P85

The fact that P85D has motor horsepower rating of 691 is responsible for such a car having roughly 50% higher torque than that of a car with similar motors, but having combined rating of 463 motor horsepower (just matching the rated battery output). This is exactly (higher output drive units - with the combined rating of 691 motor hp vs. hypothetical 463 motor hp) what the unhappy owners paid for, and exactly what they got.


The P85D with 691 motor hp and 463 hp battery output beats Audi RS7, BMW M6, MB CLS63 0 to 60mph, 0 to 100mph, and 1/4 mile. The P85D with 463 motor hp and 463 hp battery output would not.


Repeat after me: torque is **proportional** to hp for the similarly designed electric drive units (same motor speed at rated motor hp and similar motor controller). This torque produces acceleration that was advertised and is differentiating P85D from the lower variants of Tesla - 85D and P85. I understand frustration of people who incorrectly inferred P85D performance at higher speeds, but Tesla certainly did not advertised nor promoted the car based on these performance metrics.

So it is relatively (not trivially) simple, but majority of people beating themselves into a pulp of righteous indignation over this are just not understanding this, with a minority who do understand, pretending that this simple truth does not exist because it does not fit their accusatory narrative.

I had promised myself that I was not going to post in this multi-dimensional shouting match of a thread again, but I think this^^ post is so right that I want to expand and emphasize.

So which would you all rather have at the same price: 1) a P85 with 463 battery-limited horsepower and two motors adding up to 463 motor horsepower; or 2) a P85 with 463 battery-limited horsepower and two motors adding up to 691 (or 762) motor horsepower.

If your answer is indifference or (1), then it is quite consistent for you to say that 691 is an irrelevant HP statistic, and dishonest to promote.

If your answer is (2), then it is consistent for you to admit that both HP figures are significant, they matter, and neither is completely misleading, although each by itself is misleading to some degree.

And if your answer is (1), PM me about a drag race some time.

 

[rns-e]

In other words: a Tesla Model S with real 691 hp would deliver a much better 0 - 60 mph performance than the P85D with real 469 hp.

And we actually have proff of this - enter the Ludicrous upgrade. Higher battery limit and faster 0-60 mph. So having the 691 hp actually means a lot even when it comes to the P85Ds prime act the 0-60 mph

It would actually do 0-60 mph claimed numbers without the roll out nonsense without any problem ...

 

[darthy001]

I had promised myself that I was not going to post in this multi-dimensional shouting match of a thread again, but I think this^^ post is so right that I want to expand and emphasize.

So which would you all rather have at the same price: 1) a P85 with 463 battery-limited horsepower and two motors adding up to 463 motor horsepower; or 2) a P85 with 463 battery-limited horsepower and two motors adding up to 691 (or 762) motor horsepower.

If your answer is indifference or (1), then it is quite consistent for you to say that 691 is an irrelevant HP statistic, and dishonest to promote.

If your answer is (2), then it is consistent for you to admit that both HP figures are significant, they matter, and neither is completely misleading, although each by itself is misleading to some degree.

And if your answer is (1), PM me about a drag race some time.

I choose option (3): a car with 691battery linited horsepower and at least the same motor power.

As Andy asked whats the point of these last posts? No one has ever claimed that Tedla shouldnt have put motors capable of 691motor hp in the cars.... Worst strawman ever these last few posts!

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And if she had two penises, she would be her own brother. What's your point????

My point is had the car been built with motors with 463 horsepower motor power, that it would perform nowhere near what it does now.

Again though, what's your point???

Hey mr.strawman!

Who has ever claimed that Tesla should have done this?

 

[P85DEE]

I had promised myself that I was not going to post in this multi-dimensional shouting match of a thread again, but I think this^^ post is so right that I want to expand and emphasize.

Exactly.

What he's saying is had the car been built with motors which added together came to 463 hp/motor power, that it would have performed considerably worse than it does.

So which would you all rather have at the same price: 1) a P85 with 463 battery-limited horsepower and two motors adding up to 463 motor horsepower; or 2) a P85 with 463 battery-limited horsepower and two motors adding up to 691 (or 762) motor horsepower.

If your answer is indifference or (1), then it is quite consistent for you to say that 691 is an irrelevant HP statistic, and dishonest to promote.

If your answer is (2), then it is consistent for you to admit that both HP figures are significant, they matter, and neither is completely misleading, although each by itself is misleading to some degree.

And if your answer is (1), PM me about a drag race some time.

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I choose option (3): a car with 691battery linited horsepower and at least the same motor power.

As Andy asked whats the point of these last posts? No one has ever claimed that Tedla shouldnt have put motors capable of 691motor hp in the cars.... Worst strawman ever these last few posts!

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Hey mr.strawman!

Who has ever claimed that Tesla should have done this?

Who accused anyone of ever claiming or even suggesting, that Tesla "should have" done this?????

I'm just wondering aloud, what the battery limited maximum motor shaft power would have wound up being, and how the car would have ended up performing, had they elected to build the car with 463 hp/motor power, instead of what they went with.

 

[vgrinshpun]

Well, that is exactly what Tesla did do. If they had not done it as you claim, they would not have shown any HP ratings, but only torque numbers and 0-60 mph. There is no legal requirement anywhere in the world that forced Tesla to use the 691 hp figure or any hp figure at all for that matter.

They wanted to tell a story that would make customers buy the P85D over the 85D and even trade in their P85 for the P85D, and they used the 691 hp to tell that story, when they could have told a better and more correct story just using torque and 0-60 mph.

I hope that you realize that motor hp *is* torque for the tesla drivetrains. Take motor hp, multiply by 5,252 and divide by the rpm for the motor hp rating, and you get the very close approximation of torque (neglecting the torque ramp-up from stand still to about 1/3 of a second that it takes to get traction in order and ramp up to max torque).

As an engineer, I would be comfortable with torque and acceleration as well, but the unhappy owners and others were complaining that they *do not* want to bring an engineer to shop for the cutting edge technology car. As is evident from the majority of posts in related threads, they also do not have much appetite to learn about said car, even when information is repeatedly presented to them. So I doubt that providing information that you suggested would have eliminated the confusion.

As far as you suggestion that Tesla presented what it did because it conspired to mislead go, I do not buy it, not for a second. This is not a remotely reasonable conclusion.