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Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

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I believe Elon had to pitch the P85D in such a way that non-BeV types could understand just how quick (not fast, but quick) the car really is.
Using this approach you can justify basically any fabrication. If that's how Elon (and Telsa) plan to "educate" the public about the "future of EVs" then EVs are doomed. Educate with honesty and clarity, not with sleight of hand.

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I did get 10% cheaper insurance now after the new correct hp information :)
rotflol
 
No Tesla will fail if Panasonic does not continue to invest in the Gigafactory. Panasonic is investing in stages and could still pull the rug out from under them.

Tesla has made the best 4 door car on the planet but Elon could still get Tuckered

Tesla needed the referral program to spur demand as the Model X was delayed. Now that the Model X is ramping up they are back to being constrained by cell production (a good place to be from Panasonic's point of view)

Remember it is not Panasonic that is investing in the gigafactory, it is "Panasonic Energy Corportation of North America" which was only seeded with 5 million dollars around the time of the P85D launch

Still OT.... But I think you're overestimating the value and demand for the Model X and the actual production ramp. Where there is a Model X VIN in a customer's hands that ends in Pxxxxx, let me know. As of now there are zero of them and many cancelled reservations for various reasons.

As for Panasonic, I don't see them pulling their support if Tesla actually holds up their end of the deal... which might be proving more difficult given the evidence of demand constraint at this level.

Tesla's biggest claim for years now has been that they can't keep up with demand. If you can't keep up with demand, why do you need to generate more demand? I mean, these cars were basically selling themselves when they were advertised with realistic and accurate specifications. The loss of customer faith over the last year is going to hurt Tesla tremendously long term, and perhaps irreparably if they don't do something about it. If things don't change substantially and they insist on maintaining the over-promise and under-delivery strategy that has been prominent in the past 12 months then I'd bet good money that Tesla won't exist at the end of the decade.
 
Using this approach you can justify basically any fabrication. If that's how Elon (and Telsa) plan to "educate" the public about the "future of EVs" then EVs are doomed. Educate with honesty and clarity, not with sleight of hand.

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rotflol


I mean, it's essentially the Colbert truthiness argument. Sure, 691 hp isn't right. But it feels right. And isn't that what's most important?
 
Using this approach you can justify basically any fabrication. If that's how Elon (and Telsa) plan to "educate" the public about the "future of EVs" then EVs are doomed. Educate with honesty and clarity, not with sleight of hand.
I mean, it's essentially the Colbert truthiness argument. Sure, 691 hp isn't right. But it feels right. And isn't that what's most important?
Think of it in this light:
Tesla is (somewhat) held up as the crown jewel in the push for EVs. It's the car that does everything better than most (non-enthusiasts) predicted or expected was possible. It's got an amazing CEO (by many measures). It's got impressive tech. It's got a loyal following.

With all that going for it, why were such kerfuffles necessary over something so "simple" as the power ratings?
And what does it say about the future of EVs if they have to resort to such shenanigans to sell, by all accounts, one of the most impressive vehicles in the history of the automobile?
Was it, is it, really worth the risk to get "creative" with product specifications when the future of EVs and (some would argue) the future of "human compatibility" of Earth is on the line?

Just sayin'.

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@stopcrazypp - You've been following these discussions and you seem pretty quick with a search engine. Can you point me to one video or interview where Elon says "691 motor horsepower" (rather than simply "691 horsepower")? He's a smart guy, so if he left out the distinction that seems pretty telling.
 
If things don't change substantially and they insist on maintaining the over-promise and under-delivery strategy that has been prominent in the past 12 months then I'd bet good money that Tesla won't exist at the end of the decade.

I'll take that bet because I don't see only moral and ethical companies surviving. People could care less if Apple's Foxconn has to install nets to catch workers committing suicide because of their working conditions as long as they get their iPhone. The vast majority of people looking to buy a Tesla have no idea about Tesla over promising and under delivering. The response to auto pilot, for example, was not "how late it was" but "how great it is". Practically every successful multinational corporation in the past decades have not played by the rules. Look at the crap Microsoft gave us, chocking out competitors who tried to give us better software, giving away IE to bury Netscape, sued by the US government over anti-trust. Did people care? No, MS got bigger and more powerful.

I'm not making excuses for Tesla, just pointing out facts.

Many of you here seem to suffer from "pathological honesty" while at the same time secretly wanting Tesla to fail. A toxic brew stemming from jealously and your upbringing.

Ha! That gave me a good laugh. A little harsh, but funny.

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With all that going for it, why were such kerfuffles necessary over something so "simple" as the power ratings?
And what does it say about the future of EVs if they have to resort to such shenanigans to sell, by all accounts, one of the most impressive vehicles in the history of the automobile?
Was it, is it, really worth the risk to get "creative" with product specifications when the future of EVs and (some would argue) the future of "human compatibility" of Earth is on the line?

Great post - this is exactly what drives me nuts about Tesla.
 
@stopcrazypp - You've been following these discussions and you seem pretty quick with a search engine. Can you point me to one video or interview where Elon says "691 motor horsepower" (rather than simply "691 horsepower")? He's a smart guy, so if he left out the distinction that seems pretty telling.
There has been talk about this in other threads (where I believe someone linked one video where Elon said "691 horsepower"), but ultimately in colloquial speech, I don't think saying "motor horsepower" is necessary. I have noted that other manufacturers have used similar ratings (like Fisker for example) and they don't append "motor power" to the end (even when written). They just say "horsepower" and you have no hint that it is the motor rating. Tesla is actually unique in doing that. When talking about gross vs net vs certified SAE horsepower for example, the companies just say it makes xxx horsepower and the rating system is a footnote somewhere on their spec page (if they even specify it at all; not all automakers do), but the advertising doesn't necessarily say anything other than just "horsepower".
 
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There has been talk about this in other threads (where I believe someone linked one video where Elon said "691 horsepower"), but ultimately in colloquial speech, I don't think saying "motor horsepower" is necessary. I have noted that other manufacturers have used similar ratings (like Fisker for example) and they don't append "motor power" to the end. They just say "horsepower" and you have no hint that it is the motor rating. Tesla is actually unique in doing that. When talking about gross vs net vs certified SAE horsepower for example, the companies just say it makes xxx horsepower and the rating system is a footnote somewhere on their spec page, but the advertising doesn't necessarily say anything other than just "horsepower".

lol... so now it's OK to use the 691 HP term without a qualifier even though it's never produced and "motor power" is by far NOT the default usage of "horsepower"/HP? What next?

Is it OK for Tesla to say that because the car has ~275 more horsepower, highway passing performance will improve accordingly?

Is it OK for Tesla to say that motor power is "similar to an ICE at the flywheel" when 691 HP could never be measured anywhere in the car? (I could measure and confirm ICE HP at the flywheel and get the spec, but not with the P85D.)

Is it OK for Tesla to say that this is "power at the motor shafts"?

I think some of these defenses are getting pretty thin. Might be time to come up with better material.

(Answer key: No. No. No.)
 
While I'm on the "same side" with you on the 691hp issue, I don't really agree that Tesla should be excused when they don't meet promised specs, simply because of their mission. We are more inclined to cut them some slack, but ultimately they still have responsibility to deliver what was promised. For example, for the 10.9 second quarter mile on the P90DL (where there is no dispute about the car not meeting it), I think they are obligated to deliver it.

for sure. there is a difference between lying and not telling the truth.

tells us the p90dl can hit 10.9 that is not a lie, but the the "truth" is only cars with 19" rims and no options will hit that number and u might have let let some air out of the tires

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Still OT.... But I think you're overestimating the value and demand for the Model X and the actual production ramp. Where there is a Model X VIN in a customer's hands that ends in Pxxxxx, let me know. As of now there are zero of them and many cancelled reservations for various reasons.

As for Panasonic, I don't see them pulling their support if Tesla actually holds up their end of the deal... which might be proving more difficult given the evidence of demand constraint at this level.

Tesla's biggest claim for years now has been that they can't keep up with demand. If you can't keep up with demand, why do you need to generate more demand? I mean, these cars were basically selling themselves when they were advertised with realistic and accurate specifications. The loss of customer faith over the last year is going to hurt Tesla tremendously long term, and perhaps irreparably if they don't do something about it. If things don't change substantially and they insist on maintaining the over-promise and under-delivery strategy that has been prominent in the past 12 months then I'd bet good money that Tesla won't exist at the end of the decade.

what you dont seem to get is Tesla already failed at holding up their end of the deal. Panasonic increased capacity in preparation for the launch of the Model X and the Model X was repeatedly delayed. Cells have a shelf life and you cannot store cells for long. this is why the model s got the 90 pack and 70 packs, to use up their new cells that had been sitting for too long. thr storage packs use samsung and lg chem cells
 
I'll take that bet because I don't see only moral and ethical companies surviving.....

I'll take that bet, because aside from perhaps Chick Fil A, I don't see any moral and ethical companies surviving.

We all want Tesla to be as pure as the driven snow, but that's not compatible with survival in today's competitive automotive business world. Look at Volkswagen (Porsche Audi)

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for sure. there is a difference between lying and not telling the truth.

tells us the p90dl can hit 10.9 that is not a lie, but the the "truth" is only cars with 19" rims and no options will hit that number and u might have let let some air out of the tires
....

What if u did more than that?
 
I'll take that bet, because aside from perhaps Chick Fil A, I don't see any moral and ethical companies surviving.

We all want Tesla to be as pure as the driven snow, but that's not compatible with survival in today's competitive automotive business world. Look at Volkswagen (Porsche Audi)

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What if u did more than that?

Please no more Chick Fil A and VW talk. That will really throw us OT.

I was attempting to explain why Tesla was not and is still not in the clear. There is still a very high chance they could fail. Many here need to come to grips with how the real world works and cut Tesla some slack.
 
lost in all the noise is the effect of 691hp instead of 460hp.

In reality the 0-60 will improve, but only to a limited extent as the vehicle is traction limited at low speeds.
However passing performance at say 40-70mph (and beyond) would be absolutely blistering allowing for expected taper of power for motors of this nature and the known gear reduction.

This is the performance that is missing from the P85D, that early buyers at the very least had every right to expect, and indeed as we now see is why the 85D is right on the tail of the P85D, when in reality the P85D should be out of sight.

I, for one, am far more interested in real world passing power than I am with launches in everyday use.
 
This is not a game. If Telsa fails vehicle manufacturing is done in the USA. Mark my words. China Inc will outbid Google and Apple to buy Tesla if they go bankrupt (pretty easy to do when you know what the other guys are bidding)

I understand your concern. And being paranoid by nature, overly cautious, leaving no stone unturned and OCD myself, I can even empatize with it. But Tesla is here to stay.

If Tesla were going to die, it would be dead already.

I jave a feeling in my gut. Yes, I'd be the first to admit that it could be gas, but I haven't had this feeling since before the New York Giants faced the New England Patriots in Super Bowl XLII and I had the Giants.

Trust me on this one.
 
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JMO, but some of you guys, aren't looking closely enough and taking into account what this really means. Tesla is not backing off of anything. They are sticking to their story, and simply adding "clarification" to it.

But they aren't "backing off" of a thing.

Looks to me that they're "still" using the reference to, and terminology of, "Motor Power" and have a "Motor Power" column in their ad copy. In this particular column, the P85D is now listed as 503 hp rear, 259 hp front.

For the 85D and the 70D, the "Motor Power is listed as the same, "
259 hp front and rear". So the 85D and the 70D both are listed as making the same "motor power".

It seems that they are now listing the "
Battery limited maximum motor shaft power" for each car in their ad copy.

My own observations, are that they are merely adding the "
[SUP]*[/SUP] Battery limited maximum motor shaft power" as a concession to those who made a stink about it, and have no intention whatsoever of backing off of the 691 hp motor power and 762 hp motor power specs of the P85D and P90D respectively.

They still invite you to add the front and rear motor power together in their current ad copy, and nothing that they have done here would prevent one from STILL stating that the car makes a "combined 691, or 762 motor power".

Indeed the 762 number is still prominently shown in that latest Motor Trend article, and I doubt that it will be retracted. Look for it to also show up in subsequent publications.

I look at this as analogous to an ICE manufacturer advertising what his car makes under the hood, and then "clarifying" that number by spelling out what it makes at the wheels on say a chassis dyno. He is not compelled to showcase, nor even display the second number, has not relinquished his option to showcase the first number, and he will advertise and showcase the first number.

However instead of saying what the car makes at the wheels as in the ICE vehicle example, Tesla is saying what it makes at the
"motor shafts". But until they ditch the whole reference to "motor power", its a bit early to break out the champagne. Because they have still left it there and they will use it, make no mistake, and publications will use it as well.


For those who believe that the 85D is still somehow "close" in performance to the P85D, well simply look at the torque numbers. Torque is key when it comes to making a car move off the line. And a difference of 713 lb/ft of torque vs 485 lb/ft of torque, is a huge difference and worth a lot to me.

The numbers explain a lot. They explain the off the line acceleration differences observed, and the highway speed differences observed.

But no, I think this addition with the asterisk, indicating " Battery limited maximum motor shaft power"
is a concession used to assuage those who complained, and Tesla appears to have no intent at all of discarding or junking their use of the term "motor power" , and well they shouldn't because their EV competition will do so as well.

Basically, what they have done here, is throw some of us a bone. They'll let some of us gnaw on that bone, thinking that they've finally "come clean", but really, the only thing that has changed, is that they have added another "measurement" to the measurements that they were already using, as opposed to discarding their prior method of measurement and trading it in, or "replacing it" for a new system of measurement. So no, they're not backing off of a thing. If they were, well then you would see absolutely no further reference to "motor power" in their ad copy. They would have scrapped it, and you would only see "hp". They still appear to fully intend to use themselves, and "allow" others, magazines and such, to use the combined "motor power" reference when describing the P85D and P90D.


I agree with much of what you say but it doesn't change the fact now that:

  • Future buyers will no longer be misled. There is now a combined REAL motor power at the shaft listed.
  • Magazines will no longer be able to say it's a 691 or 762 hp car. Why? Because they were misled the same way as the average consumer and there's no way they're going to list 691 when they've been told it's 463.

BTW, I'll bet that 463 hp is now low balling it and that is the power listed at the lowest range of the of the daily driving SOC which is 30%.

As far as I'm concerned, Tesla is now doing the right and honest thing for *future* buyers. It will remain to be seen what they do for past buyers. Will the try and make it right or will they simply state they were telling the truth all along and it was up to the consumer to know that it wasn't *REALLY* 691 hp at any point in the drive train....even all the way upstream at the battery

I'm late to the party :)
 
From my vantage point, I see the following-

From driving the cars before I bought them, I knew MS did not accelerate like an ICE at higher speeds.

You mean that's what you thought when you bought it because you thought it was a 691 hp car but now you know it's less than 500 hp. The P85D, as I have always maintained, accelerates as well as any ICE with the same power to weight ratio at highway speeds.

When I first test drove the P85D, I knew it didn't accelerate like it should but was told by Jonathan Stroud, at the Sunnyvale store, that the reason power felt like it was falling off after 60 MPH is that the speed was limited to 80 MPH and that the power was progressively withdrawn so there wasn't a sudden deceleration as you hit the speed limiter. So we thought the same thing but I was given a believable explanation.

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I agree with P85DEE, I think you guys are premature in your victory lap. The outcome of any disputes will likely be more definitive. The motor hp numbers are still valid and, if other members are correct about European testing standards, required.

Must I post my bullet list again? :wink:

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It hasn't been mentioned yet but max "shaft horsepower" is not the same as "battery horsepower" but should be within 2% of hp at the tires.

Huh? You think the P85D only loses 2% from motor shaft to rubber?