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Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

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There is less than 50hp difference between P85D and 85D. 0-60 time in P85D is with 1 feet roll out and in 85D it is without that. So the real difference in 0-60 time is about 0.8 seconds. 50 hp can't make such a difference? Is 85D software limited?
There you have it. Number is written out and people still don' t understand what it means.

When there is no real understanding how power, torque and speed are correlated, no number will be understood correctly.
Add in two different motors controlled with two inverters feeding on same battery and any hope for any understanding is lost.

Conspiracy theories then save the day.
 
So does motor hp = wheel hp for these EVs? I hope motor hp doesn't mean just motor hp as actual wheel hp would be even lower. I am asking just for clarification, not to start anything [emoji4].

And, just to summarize: Tesla has always battery limited the motor power since the P85D came out, now they are just explicitly stating that and the real power, right? Sigh.
 
While there will no doubt be those who will (rightly) have issues with the fact they bought their car when higher numbers were advertised, I applaud Tesla for doing the right thing here, even if it will potentially cause them some difficulty.

Similar to the situations where customer angst was expressed about the Roadster 1.5 pack upgrade issues, and the early "gas savings cost" on their web page, it's apparent Tesla does listen to feedback, and is willing to correct accordingly. I appreciate that.
 
And, just to summarize: Tesla has always battery limited the motor power since the P85D came out, now they are just explicitly stating that and the real power, right? Sigh.
No.
That is not the real power. That is only the real power when going more than 30mph.
When one goes slower, that is NOT the real power.

Tesla still lies!!!!!!
 
While there will no doubt be those who will (rightly) have issues with the fact they bought their car when higher numbers were advertised, I applaud Tesla for doing the right thing here, even if it will potentially cause them some difficulty.

Similar to the situations where customer angst was expressed about the Roadster 1.5 pack upgrade issues, and the early "gas savings cost" on their web page, it's apparent Tesla does listen to feedback, and is willing to correct accordingly. I appreciate that.

+1 here on both points. It does give me great pause to put all my eggs in the Tesla basket when it comes to buying a Model X (adding to the S), though. One has to look at the list of "oversights in communication", and Tesla taking communication as meaning discreetly changing single words or sentences on a website and seeing if their customers will notice. I mean, is this a game or something?
 
One has to look at the list of "oversights in communication", and Tesla taking communication as meaning discreetly changing single words or sentences on a website and seeing if their customers will notice. I mean, is this a game or something?

This is how agile companies are run nowadays. Tesla makes improvements to the car all the time as well. I understand frequent change can create resistance but it is the way innovation works at its best. Frequent small iterations and improvements is how the optimum is reached. And then there's a pivot and the thing starts all over again.

The other car companies are not yet able to follow this lead but they will have to at some point in time because they will always play catch up if they don't.
 
Ok, but I wouldn't call decreasing motor hp by over 200 and using rollout on just the P85D as "frequent small iterations and improvements". The way they communicate this stuff is a bit sneaky, to put it lightly.

For the P85D, they also reduced the 0 to 60 mph time by 0,1 sec at some point and they increased motor power when Ludicrous mode was released. They also significantly improved the numbers for the 85D.

IMO the only real mistake they made was waiting so long to publish the motor shaft power figures. At some point in time they got scared of the potential negative reaction but we managed to make so much noise about the issue that there was no way they could keep holding on to the status quo. In a couple of weeks / months this will be behind us and Tesla is back on track being an innovator that does things the way things need to be done in today's world. (That's what I hope anyway.)
 
Definitely glad they published the real numbers so future buyers are aware of the actual differences between the models, which is very small.

Unfortunately for Tesla, while this was the right thing to do, they're now going to have to face the backlash from the thousands of P85D buyers who bought under false representations, now with basically nothing to defend themselves. They removed the original off-the-wall incorrect number (691 HP) and replaced it with a lower, accurate number (463 HP). If they think all early P85D buyers are going to stand for a 228 HP decrease in spec from original advertising they're kidding themselves.

I posted my response to this in the original horsepower debate thread: [updated with *] P85D 691HP should have an asterisk * next to it.. "Up to 691HP" - Page 179
 
I'm very glad to see that Tesla has finally done what they should have done a long time ago. At least now new potential customers coming to the website will know exactly what they'll be buying.

I hope this is also a first step towards correcting the problem completely, and that soon Tesla will announce some plan to "make things right" for those of us who purchased thinking we were getting cars capable of producing 691 HP, since they have now very clearly acknowledged the cars were only capable of producing 2/3 of that.
 
JMO, but some of you guys, aren't looking closely enough and taking into account what this really means. Tesla is not backing off of anything. They are sticking to their story, and simply adding "clarification" to it.

But they aren't "backing off" of a thing.

Looks to me that they're "still" using the reference to, and terminology of, "Motor Power" and have a "Motor Power" column in their ad copy. In this particular column, the P85D is now listed as 503 hp rear, 259 hp front.

For the 85D and the 70D, the "Motor Power is listed as the same, "
259 hp front and rear". So the 85D and the 70D both are listed as making the same "motor power".

It seems that they are now listing the "
Battery limited maximum motor shaft power" for each car in their ad copy.

My own observations, are that they are merely adding the "
[SUP]*[/SUP] Battery limited maximum motor shaft power" as a concession to those who made a stink about it, and have no intention whatsoever of backing off of the 691 hp motor power and 762 hp motor power specs of the P85D and P90D respectively.

They still invite you to add the front and rear motor power together in their current ad copy, and nothing that they have done here would prevent one from STILL stating that the car makes a "combined 691, or 762 motor power".

Indeed the 762 number is still prominently shown in that latest Motor Trend article, and I doubt that it will be retracted. Look for it to also show up in subsequent publications.

I look at this as analogous to an ICE manufacturer advertising what his car makes under the hood, and then "clarifying" that number by spelling out what it makes at the wheels on say a chassis dyno. He is not compelled to showcase, nor even display the second number, has not relinquished his option to showcase the first number, and he will advertise and showcase the first number.

However instead of saying what the car makes at the wheels as in the ICE vehicle example, Tesla is saying what it makes at the
"motor shafts". But until they ditch the whole reference to "motor power", its a bit early to break out the champagne. Because they have still left it there and they will use it, make no mistake, and publications will use it as well.


For those who believe that the 85D is still somehow "close" in performance to the P85D, well simply look at the torque numbers. Torque is key when it comes to making a car move off the line. And a difference of 713 lb/ft of torque vs 485 lb/ft of torque, is a huge difference and worth a lot to me.

The numbers explain a lot. They explain the off the line acceleration differences observed, and the highway speed differences observed.

But no, I think this addition with the asterisk, indicating " Battery limited maximum motor shaft power"
is a concession used to assuage those who complained, and Tesla appears to have no intent at all of discarding or junking their use of the term "motor power" , and well they shouldn't because their EV competition will do so as well.

Basically, what they have done here, is throw some of us a bone. They'll let some of us gnaw on that bone, thinking that they've finally "come clean", but really, the only thing that has changed, is that they have added another "measurement" to the measurements that they were already using, as opposed to discarding their prior method of measurement and trading it in, or "replacing it" for a new system of measurement. So no, they're not backing off of a thing. If they were, well then you would see absolutely no further reference to "motor power" in their ad copy. They would have scrapped it, and you would only see "hp". They still appear to fully intend to use themselves, and "allow" others, magazines and such, to use the combined "motor power" reference when describing the P85D and P90D.

 
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I think Tesla did the right thing. With the motor HP and the battery limited HP listed, it is then up to the buyer to do the analysis and decide for themselves. Tesla cannot remove the motor HP because other EV still do so, so Tesla need those numbers for us to compare.

We now have tons of information to make comparison, i.e. real time 0-60 performance, motor HP performance, and battery power performance.
 
From my vantage point, I see the following-

From driving the cars before I bought them, I knew MS did not accelerate like an ICE at higher speeds. From model aircraft experience, I knew that batteries designed for high sustained power output did not perform well from a longevity standpoint. My conclusion was that long range/long life BeV batteries do not support high power outputs for long durations. Put differently, there was no way an 8 year battery was going to out perform an ICE at higher speeds.


Tesla knew that quoting individual motor HP capability without regard for the battery's ability to source power would garner them press. They did this on purpose knowing the system as a whole was not capable of delivering the individual motor maximum capability simultaneously. JB's blog post says as much.


MotorTrend has come out with 1/4 mile and 0-60 numbers that can not currently be verified in the wild by owners. Tesla knows this as well yet there is no explanation. I suspect they are now comfortable with releasing the car's full performance and an OTA update will follow for cars currently in the field. Given this update will only deliver on a previous promise, there will likely be no big announcement from Tesla; it will just happen.


Only after MT's confirmation and Tesla's subsequent communication about MT's work has Tesla updated their site to reflect available battery power in addition to the motor hp numbers. This is not a coincidence nor is it one that there was a Tweet about the MT results but no communication about the battery HP numbers.


These are all calculated moves. I suspect the marketing side of Tesla gets all ramped up on what engineering will do and when those results are delayed, the company ships anyway and fixes things over time. I take this into account when I make my purchase decisions. In the end, I am not disappointed and I end up with a much better product with much better value then any other option available. In short, I'm a happy customer.
 
Finally, the begining of the end of the PT Barnum school of marketing at Tesla ... Even if there is a sucker born every minute, it won't be enough for Tesla to be successful. Good on the company, at LONG last.
Thanks to all who did the research and spoke up. This is how progress is made.

To the Danes in particular, an homage thanks to another famous Dane (HC Andersen):
So off went the Emperor in procession under his splendid canopy. Everyone in the streets and the windows said, "Oh, how fine are the Emperor's new clothes! Don't they fit him to perfection? And see his long train!" Nobody would confess that he couldn't see anything, for that would prove him either unfit for his position, or a fool. No costume the Emperor had worn before was ever such a complete success.
"But he hasn't got anything on," a little child said.
"Did you ever hear such innocent prattle?" said its father. And one person whispered to another what the child had said, "He hasn't anything on. A child says he hasn't anything on."
"But he hasn't got anything on!" the whole town cried out at last.