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Starting up the car, put the reverse, creep mode on, and the brake does not work
- Thread starter yoyo
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- Driving Dynamics Model S
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
I just experienced this today as well.
My car is a P85D, delivered in late December. Creep mode off, with version .113 of the firmware.
I had parked and realized, after getting out, that I had put the front of the car slightly into a soft snow bank. (Embarassing, I know.) I didn't want to leave the car parked that way, so I jumped back in to quickly back the car up a couple of feet. I didn't put on my seat belt or take the time I normally would, as I was in a hurry, and was literally just planning on backing up a couple of feet, and hopping back out. I did have the door closed, though, so no possibility of anything like that causing the problem. Anyway, I started the car, and apparently too quickly put it in reverse, because when I pressed on the brake pedal (after also having stepped on the go pedal ever so briefly), the brake pedal did not respond as expected. I stepped on it harder--a lot harder--and the car stopped.
This wasn't really a dangerous situation at all, since I had barely stepped on the go pedal at all, and there was nothing behind me. I just wanted to add my voice to this thread, as I definitely experienced the same "bug" that others are describing.
I have also reported this to Tesla.
My car is a P85D, delivered in late December. Creep mode off, with version .113 of the firmware.
I had parked and realized, after getting out, that I had put the front of the car slightly into a soft snow bank. (Embarassing, I know.) I didn't want to leave the car parked that way, so I jumped back in to quickly back the car up a couple of feet. I didn't put on my seat belt or take the time I normally would, as I was in a hurry, and was literally just planning on backing up a couple of feet, and hopping back out. I did have the door closed, though, so no possibility of anything like that causing the problem. Anyway, I started the car, and apparently too quickly put it in reverse, because when I pressed on the brake pedal (after also having stepped on the go pedal ever so briefly), the brake pedal did not respond as expected. I stepped on it harder--a lot harder--and the car stopped.
This wasn't really a dangerous situation at all, since I had barely stepped on the go pedal at all, and there was nothing behind me. I just wanted to add my voice to this thread, as I definitely experienced the same "bug" that others are describing.
I have also reported this to Tesla.
Newscutter
Member
Stumbled on this topic--- but now rethinking my morning commute:
I back into my garage (which is downhill from the road). So this morning I get in, drop into D and pull up the hill to the road. No traffic, so no need to brake exiting the driveway. Go down the hill to a stop sign (which up a short incline up to the road) using regen plus the incline to stop since I had pre-warmed the car. Make turn and proceed about 1/4 mile to traffic light. Let regen slow me then apply brakes.... and they are definitely NOT working like I expected AND pulling to the right. Push harder and stop okay--- figured maybe road was more frozen than I thought it was? Once clear of traffic I decide to test the brakes with another firm application and they work fine. Shrugged it off....
...until I saw this thread.
Looked at my dashcam video and it confirms the pull and that it was my first application of the brakes (about 1:20 after power up) but not really much else to see.
Hmmm??
I back into my garage (which is downhill from the road). So this morning I get in, drop into D and pull up the hill to the road. No traffic, so no need to brake exiting the driveway. Go down the hill to a stop sign (which up a short incline up to the road) using regen plus the incline to stop since I had pre-warmed the car. Make turn and proceed about 1/4 mile to traffic light. Let regen slow me then apply brakes.... and they are definitely NOT working like I expected AND pulling to the right. Push harder and stop okay--- figured maybe road was more frozen than I thought it was? Once clear of traffic I decide to test the brakes with another firm application and they work fine. Shrugged it off....
...until I saw this thread.
Looked at my dashcam video and it confirms the pull and that it was my first application of the brakes (about 1:20 after power up) but not really much else to see.
Hmmm??
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Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
That doesn't sound like the same issue.
I'm pretty sure the issue the rest of us are describing only occurs if we try to apply the brake within the first few seconds--perhaps the first 3-5 seconds at the most--of starting the car.
You may want to call tesla asap. It may be related. The brake did not work until you shift gear again or release and re-press the pedal
note the exact time and they can pull logs. This is not something we should ignore as it could cause major accident and bad press. They need to get to the bottom of this immediately
thanks
note the exact time and they can pull logs. This is not something we should ignore as it could cause major accident and bad press. They need to get to the bottom of this immediately
thanks
Having driven a car where the power brakes weren't working and having to use the hydraulic fallback (not a Tesla BTW) I found that if you aren't prepared for it, it feels exactly like no brakes. You have to really stand on the brakes to get them to work at all. Forget any kind of a panic stop. Far more pressure is required than in a car that has only manual brakes.
update again.... I will be getting the car back soon. Engineering team just confirmed that indeed there was a firmware bug (before .139) that allowed the car to shift into gear before the brake booster is fully initialized. Firmware .139 fixes that.
(bad news is that: I doubt the .139 would have the torque sleep - more like the bug fix)
(bad news is that: I doubt the .139 would have the torque sleep - more like the bug fix)
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I tested this out three times today in the P85D (.113). It does indeed seem to be related to systems booting after the car shuts down (energy saver). No creep used in my car. After thinking about this I've experienced this several other times before reading this thread, but I just chalked it up to normal brake boost just being low upon a quick get-in-and-go and reacted accordingly without really thinking about it.
First test: Pulling out of the garage. I back in, so nose out first. Car was unplugged already, not preconditioned. I jumped in and immediately pressed the accelerator and headed out to the driveway (not slowly, mind you). I hit the brake to slow before reaching the road and the boost was not available. Brakes worked with added force as expected. This process was < 5 seconds.
Second test: After parking for 30 minutes or so, I jumped in and went to reverse immediately. Same as before, brake boost was unavailable on the first tap of the brakes. Instead of applying more force (since there was nothing behind me to cause any danger if I kept going backwards) I just let off the brake fully and tapped it again and I had full/normal boost.
Third test: After parking again for a little while I did another forward test similar to my garage exit. This time I waited a three-count after pressing the brake to start the car. Went forward, tapped brake, brake worked normally.
So, I'm 100% certain this is simply a case of 'no boost', not 'no brakes', and it is only during the first few seconds of startup. The brakes work fine with added force. It was very easy to tell from the pedal feel that there was limited/no boost and that I would need to press the brake harder to slow the car.
It reminds me of ICE vehicles, especially in the cold, where it takes a few moments to get brake boost when starting. Happens pretty much the same way in an ICE in these conditions where boost is either non-existent or very little for the first moments after starting the car.
Overall... I don't personally see this as a huge problem, nor an actual safety concern. The brakes still function. A driver should be able to easily tell boost/no boost and apply added force. This is different from the wet-brakes limited stopping power noted in another thread, which I also mostly chalk up to operator error (not drying brakes when wet......).
I'll add that the brake pedal felt the same no-boost feel when starting the car each time, which seems normal also.
I'm guessing that for some reason the car doesn't assist the brakes for the first press of the brake pedal if you start going before that system is completely fired up. It also may be that this system takes a small amount of time, like a vacuum assist setup, to actually function at full power. I wonder if a capacitor needs to charge or something in the electromechanical setup.
Temporary solution: Wait 3 seconds before going. Permanent solution: some simple firmware magic to either force that 3 second wait before allowing a gear change (kludge) or a fix to initialize the booster on time (proper).
First test: Pulling out of the garage. I back in, so nose out first. Car was unplugged already, not preconditioned. I jumped in and immediately pressed the accelerator and headed out to the driveway (not slowly, mind you). I hit the brake to slow before reaching the road and the boost was not available. Brakes worked with added force as expected. This process was < 5 seconds.
Second test: After parking for 30 minutes or so, I jumped in and went to reverse immediately. Same as before, brake boost was unavailable on the first tap of the brakes. Instead of applying more force (since there was nothing behind me to cause any danger if I kept going backwards) I just let off the brake fully and tapped it again and I had full/normal boost.
Third test: After parking again for a little while I did another forward test similar to my garage exit. This time I waited a three-count after pressing the brake to start the car. Went forward, tapped brake, brake worked normally.
So, I'm 100% certain this is simply a case of 'no boost', not 'no brakes', and it is only during the first few seconds of startup. The brakes work fine with added force. It was very easy to tell from the pedal feel that there was limited/no boost and that I would need to press the brake harder to slow the car.
It reminds me of ICE vehicles, especially in the cold, where it takes a few moments to get brake boost when starting. Happens pretty much the same way in an ICE in these conditions where boost is either non-existent or very little for the first moments after starting the car.
Overall... I don't personally see this as a huge problem, nor an actual safety concern. The brakes still function. A driver should be able to easily tell boost/no boost and apply added force. This is different from the wet-brakes limited stopping power noted in another thread, which I also mostly chalk up to operator error (not drying brakes when wet......).
I'll add that the brake pedal felt the same no-boost feel when starting the car each time, which seems normal also.
I'm guessing that for some reason the car doesn't assist the brakes for the first press of the brake pedal if you start going before that system is completely fired up. It also may be that this system takes a small amount of time, like a vacuum assist setup, to actually function at full power. I wonder if a capacitor needs to charge or something in the electromechanical setup.
Temporary solution: Wait 3 seconds before going. Permanent solution: some simple firmware magic to either force that 3 second wait before allowing a gear change (kludge) or a fix to initialize the booster on time (proper).
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Update -- Tesla got back to me this afternoon after reviewing the logs. They think the problem was because I had pressed the accelerator pedal too lightly. Seems odd to me because I've had this car for multiple weeks now and I wasn't driving it differently this past weekend. But nonetheless, I'm open to the possibility that it was user error. I'll be on alert if this situation happens again.
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
Well, that would certainly be consistent with the way it occurred for me this afternoon (see complete post upthread, excerpt below):
Newscutter
Member
Given the other variables I'm going to just monitor and see if there is a repeat of the symptoms. Otherwise it was a one-time "hmm" and the reverse commute today was totally normal (as was the rest of the drive in this morning). We'd driven in freezing rain the prior night and the brakes were likely quite cold-soaked and frozen overnight in the garage as the dashcam still shows frozen droplets on the hood.
I uploaded the dashcam then realized there was too much identifying info in it (route signs, street names) but essentially it showed that was the first application of the pedal and it was fine on the second use. No danger of an accident as I allow for a lot of margin as a matter of habit.
I only chimed in because it was weird timing with me seeing this thread. For now I'm chalking it up as a fluke... if that changes, I'll be back-- though I do appreciate the concern.
I uploaded the dashcam then realized there was too much identifying info in it (route signs, street names) but essentially it showed that was the first application of the pedal and it was fine on the second use. No danger of an accident as I allow for a lot of margin as a matter of habit.
I only chimed in because it was weird timing with me seeing this thread. For now I'm chalking it up as a fluke... if that changes, I'll be back-- though I do appreciate the concern.
This has nothing to do with the accelerator being pressed too lightly. All of my incidents happened with creep on and no accelerator at all. I have confirmed incidents under both .113 and .115. I reported all incidents to Tesla yesterday. They promptly brought me a loaner today and said it was the brake booster.
GUESS WHAT? I had the same problem with the loaner tonight. Clearly a software problem. I am confident that it will be quickly resolved.
GUESS WHAT? I had the same problem with the loaner tonight. Clearly a software problem. I am confident that it will be quickly resolved.
Engineering team confirmed that this is definitely fixed in .139 They specifically blocked shifting into gear before booster fully up. It is described in my service documents
I was contacted by my service manager after posting in this thread. Engineering pushed .139 to my car. I haven't been able to duplicate the issue since.
this happened to me this weekend, but i wasn't able to post it.
same as many of you -- i was parked facing uphill in a parking lot. shifted into R, let off the brake, rolled slowly backwards as planned. there was an SUV behind me so I braked -- and the brakes did nothing! it felt as though the brake pedal was barely responsive, so in a panic I mashed down really hard and luckily they kicked in just in time to keep me from hitting the other car.
if it's true that .139 fixes this, then congrats to Tesla for fixing it so quickly. but also "wtf Tesla for letting this software behavior get out in the first place."
same as many of you -- i was parked facing uphill in a parking lot. shifted into R, let off the brake, rolled slowly backwards as planned. there was an SUV behind me so I braked -- and the brakes did nothing! it felt as though the brake pedal was barely responsive, so in a panic I mashed down really hard and luckily they kicked in just in time to keep me from hitting the other car.
if it's true that .139 fixes this, then congrats to Tesla for fixing it so quickly. but also "wtf Tesla for letting this software behavior get out in the first place."
EarlyAdopter
Active Member
I got .139 last night as well after getting contacted by the local service center saying to expect a firmware update for this issue soon.
I tried repro'ing it before the update - I was able to repro it on the first try by manually turning off the car, then turning it back with the brake pedal and putting it into gear really fast, but I couldn't repro it subsequent tries (I tried 4 more times, but couldn't get it to do it).
After the update I tried 5 times and couldn't get it to do it.
I tried repro'ing it before the update - I was able to repro it on the first try by manually turning off the car, then turning it back with the brake pedal and putting it into gear really fast, but I couldn't repro it subsequent tries (I tried 4 more times, but couldn't get it to do it).
After the update I tried 5 times and couldn't get it to do it.
richrootes
Member
All fixed my end too
just a thought - we might want to consider removing this thread from the forums. The last thing Tesla needs is some tit of a journalist getting hold of a braking problem and making two and two make 89.
i have no objection to this - it's done and dusted. Any other takers/comments?
just a thought - we might want to consider removing this thread from the forums. The last thing Tesla needs is some tit of a journalist getting hold of a braking problem and making two and two make 89.
i have no objection to this - it's done and dusted. Any other takers/comments?
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