Some people think that 30 minutes is too long to wait for a charge

[dsm363]

Why are you all so up in arms about topics like this? Some people don't want to stop for 30 minutes every 200 miles on a road trip, and they would be correct in my opinion. That is too long of a wait, even if there were superchargers everywhere I needed them. I get it, you all love the Model S and Tesla and think they can do no wrong. Not everyone is going to agree and there is nothing wrong with that. Using pictures like that to say that an ICE car is worse is crap, unless there was a hurricane or some other natural disaster coming or a gas shortage, which I've never experienced, I've never waited in a line like that for gas. It takes less than 5 minutes to fill my tank up, I don't want to stop and get a coffee or whatever for 30 minutes every time I need to refuel. Some people may not agree that the Model S is the best thing since sliced bread, and guess what, you all will survive that. Get over it.

The pretentiousness and snobbery of this community is outstanding.

You're welcome? Seriously. It obviously isn't the car for you. There is no perfect car for everyone for every situation and don't think anyone here is saying that.

 

[EarlyAdopter]

I love these comments. Numbers are half baked. 40 minutes every 3-4 hours? Maybe if the SC is at the exact location you need it to be - and there is zero time getting off highway - and you plug in in zero seconds with zero parking time. And you have a perfect 20 minute charge with full power every single second.

Then you compare to a gas station in a crowded city with lines that is presumably out of the way.

I don't drive an ICE much anymore but when I do, the gas station is on the right side on a road I was travelling on anyway. There is no line. And the pump time is under 90 seconds. Figuring 10 minutes is not normal. And the last car I drove regularly was a Civic hybrid with a 12 gallon tank. Got me 500 miles between stops (with a buffer) so I usually filled up close to every 2 weeks.

The other enormous difference is that on a road trip, I've got my toddler and I just want to get to my destination fast. When I buy gas, I can pick the time and maybe I am running early to a meeting so I get it then instead of waiting in a lobby longer for a meeting. Being able to pick when to get a refill is a huge advantage.

Supercharging is a great idea and fantastic. But pretending that it is as convenient as gas is not true for lots of people (ie suburbanites with lots of gas station choices and no lines).

My experience was quite different. Having to take time out of my week to go get gas every week was incredibly inconvenient. My schedule is packed. I have to balance work and picking up a kid and am not left with any slack time.

Even in the case where there is gas station right along the route it still took 7 to 10 minutes for the entire process of driving in, getting out of the car, going through the stupid payment process typing in a ZIP code, waiting for the pump to start, pumping the gas, getting back in and driving off. This is assuming no lines. The 90 seconds for the fuel to flow is but one tiny part.

My previous ICE car (larger 4 door luxury performance sedan) got about 280 miles on a tank and required a fill up every week. Comparing a Civic hybrid to a Model S is hardly a fair comparison.

Getting those 10 minutes back every week times 48 weeks of commuting a year gives me back 480 minutes of my time. I'm more than happy to get back that time when I can least afford it during work/commute/kids in return for giving up a small fraction of that time a couple of times a year when driving on a long trip on vacation when I can most afford it and can plan for it.

Your mileage may vary of course, but I really think many people are weighing these factors poorly when bemoaning the need to stop longer and more often on long trips.

 

[Zapped]

I think we are trying to discuss the refueling (EV or gas) of daily routine use and the refueling (EV or gas) on long trips in the same breath. That's an apples and oranges situation. ............

+265
A) I'll rent a car for long trips if I'm in a hurry or there's no adequate charging infrastructure.
B) For daily driving an EV is a no brainer IMHO (at least for 85% of drivers whose daily drive less than 100 miles or whatever the stats are.)

 

[David_Cary]

My experience was quite different. Having to take time out of my week to go get gas every week was incredibly inconvenient. My schedule is packed. I have to balance work and picking up a kid and am not left with any slack time.

Even in the case where there is gas station right along the route it still took 7 to 10 minutes for the entire process of driving in, getting out of the car, going through the stupid payment process typing in a ZIP code, waiting for the pump to start, pumping the gas, getting back in and driving off. This is assuming no lines. The 90 seconds for the fuel to flow is but one tiny part.

My previous ICE car (larger 4 door luxury performance sedan) got about 280 miles on a tank and required a fill up every week. Comparing a Civic hybrid to a Model S is hardly a fair comparison.

Getting those 10 minutes back every week times 48 weeks of commuting a year gives me back 480 minutes of my time. I'm more than happy to get back that time when I can least afford it during work/commute/kids in return for giving up a small fraction of that time a couple of times a year when driving on a long trip on vacation when I can most afford it and can plan for it.

Your mileage may vary of course, but I really think many people are weighing these factors poorly when bemoaning the need to stop longer and more often on long trips.

Right - YMMV. I guess my overall point is that 30 minutes to charge on a roadtrip is a barrier for a lot of people. Obviously not for you.

Just to be nitpicky - 280 miles is hardly the average range of a luxury ICE car (although the thirstier cars will take longer to fill). Where I live, the zip code requirement is not universal and easily avoided (and I do).

The other YMMV is that I have a vacation house and in-laws that combined I travel to 15 times a year that I need to supercharge for. (This is all theoretical because the SC isn't installed yet). The location while on the interstate will be a few minutes on and off - just the nature of interstate ramps. The gas station would be at the destination and again on the right side of the road that is not a highway.

Now even my annual time committed to fueling is still higher than an ICE car using your numbers.

But in my world my annual minutes are 200 not 480 so Supercharging 15 times is not a "fraction of that time" - in fact it is about 600 minutes. If I have to wait in line some of the time, it could exceed 1000 minutes.

I think the real issue is YMMV.

 

[andrewket]

Near me, the Dominicks and Jewel have started a co-op marketing program where, when you spend $x you get gas for 5c less. Or something like that.

So here come me through the check out line and the very nice check out people ring me up then tell me how much I can save on gas.

"Thanks, but I drive electric." The look on their face is quizzical, priceless. I deliberately say it, nicely, to "plant the seed".

We have the same program here at Giant. Same parent company I think. The other day we had over 2000 gas points and the cashier didn't want to say it too loudly like it was announcing we had 50k in cash in small unmarked bills. I said thanks, I know, but we rarely ever buy gas anymore. We got the same crazy look from the cashier. Priceless.

 

[Liz G]

We must remember, 30 mins is the current amount of time. There is nothing to say that in the future it won't be faster. And we as yet do not know how/when the battery swapping will be rolled out.

This car is not for everyone. In fact no car is. I see very few farmers whose only vehicle is a 2 seater sports car. That would a bit hard for them to haul around farm equipment. So, they either buy a 2nd vehicle for those purposes or just buy one vehicle that better fits all their needs.

The Model S is right for some people. And some people make adjustments when it's not right all the time. But it is a step in the right direction. And we must remember it is just a step in the journey, not the destination. Bigger and better things are yet to come.

 

[AnOutsider]

Well said Liz

 

[Cottonwood]

We must remember, 30 mins is the current amount of time. There is nothing to say that in the future it won't be faster. And we as yet do not know how/when the battery swapping will be rolled out.

This car is not for everyone. In fact no car is. I see very few farmers whose only vehicle is a 2 seater sports car. That would a bit hard for them to haul around farm equipment. So, they either buy a 2nd vehicle for those purposes or just buy one vehicle that better fits all their needs.

The Model S is right for some people. And some people make adjustments when it's not right all the time. But it is a step in the right direction. And we must remember it is just a step in the journey, not the destination. Bigger and better things are yet to come.

With software v5.0 and higher, 30 min may be a reasonable time for a charge, but with v4.5, it is still longer than that. Right now, with v4.5, the time is longer than 30 minutes.

The two graphs below are the charge profile from Supercharger | Tesla Motors and my measured data with a 120 kW Supercharger in Glenwood Springs and my MS with SW v4.5. While the Tesla graph may show charging from 75 rated miles to 200 rated miles in 20-30 minutes, my measured rate with v4.5 is that same charge from 75 to 200 rated miles takes about 45 minutes. I have seen the same charging profile at Silverthorne with my v4.5 software. To get the 400 mph charge rate, the MS needs to drink at 120 kW rate, which I believe v5.0 is supposed to support. I can't wait to move to 5.0 and try supercharging again.

The comments about there being some things that the MS just won't do are right on. That is why I keep the 2001 Jeep Cherokee with a front winch and rock rails... :biggrin:

 

[Falcon5]

Stopping at the Superchargers takes us less time than stopping for gas. We can get food, walk our dogs, and take care of business while our car is charging. We do not have to stay with the vehicle, pay the cashier, and then look for a place to get food, walk dogs, and take care of business. We watch our car charge on our phone app and return when our car is charged.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

I think we are trying to discuss the refueling (EV or gas) of daily routine use and the refueling (EV or gas) on long trips in the same breath. That's an apples and oranges situation.

No it's not.

My last car was a Prius which averaged 48 MPG. I drive an average of 20,000 miles annually. So that works out to approximately 417 gallons of gas, or 38 fill-ups at a gas station. Let's conservatively estimate 5 minutes to fill up the tank, pay, etc. That equates to 3 hours and 10 minutes spent refueling my ICE car each year. So as long as I spend less than 3 hours and 10 minutes of cumulative time charging on the occasional long distance trips - which I take maybe once or twice per year - I'm still saving time versus my previous car. Daily charging doesn't factor into this because it happens overnight and doesn't require time out of my day.

 

[David_Cary]

FWIW - Another factor is that a long distance road trip is not usually taken alone. So for me - 1 person usually when filling gas vs 3 people waiting to SC.

Absolutely the Model S is not for everyone. I think the discussion became about 30 minutes to SC being an issue. It is an issue IMO. Doesn't mean the car is bad or not perfect for some people. For me and my family, 30 minutes (or 40) is an issue. Not insurmountable but an issue.

I am surprised how many people mention once or twice a year. Especially given the cost. Lots of people talk about near weekly SCing.

Also when splitting hairs, the fact is that plugging in each night does take some time. It isn't zero. Especially when you forget because you are unloading a kid or groceries or think you were going out again.

 

[Liz G]

Have to point out that a lot this is personal preference. If you read my post "Getting Gas Sucks", I have come to the point where having to find time to gas up within my daily routine is an inconvenience and something that I will not accept in any future car I buy. While I just factor in time to SC when planning my trips.

 

[dsm363]

Sure. Plugging in does take time but measured in seconds (less than ten).

I agree. This isn't the car for everyone (cost, range and size among other factors) and agree, no one car is for everyone. Many people can use this car with zero compromise, others with minimal effort and others the effort will be greater than the benefits so they likely should not get it.

 

[texex91]

Sure. Plugging in does take time but measured in seconds (less than ten).

I agree. This isn't the car for everyone (cost, range and size among other factors) and agree, no one car is for everyone. Many people can use this car with zero compromise, others with minimal effort and others the effort will be greater than the benefits so they likely should not get it.

Especially if you don't take trip over 200 miles (I always fly if it's more than a few hour drive). Makes a great car either way, but if you rarely take trips--it's flat out perfect.

 

[caddieo]

No it's not.

My last car was a Prius which averaged 48 MPG. I drive an average of 20,000 miles annually. So that works out to approximately 417 gallons of gas, or 38 fill-ups at a gas station. Let's conservatively estimate 5 minutes to fill up the tank, pay, etc. That equates to 3 hours and 10 minutes spent refueling my ICE car each year. So as long as I spend less than 3 hours and 10 minutes of cumulative time charging on the occasional long distance trips - which I take maybe once or twice per year - I'm still saving time versus my previous car. Daily charging doesn't factor into this because it happens overnight and doesn't require time out of my day.

My earlier comment has nothing to do at all with time differentials. It has to do simply with the need to stop for refueling/recharging or not at all.

 

[Jace_91]

30 mins isn't bad at all, in an ICE even if you weren't stopping for gas, a stop for bathroom/ snack/ starbucks every 200 miles isn't bad, you would probably be doing it anyways depending who you are traveling with, with the superchargers you get all you need accomplished and get free, clean (especially solar superchargers) energy.

 

[DavidM]

Well, if you are waiting 5 or 6 minutes every week at a gas station, that's too long for me. I pull in my garage, plug in, and then walk away (every other night). Having an EV with 265 - 300 mile range, you never have to wait even one minute, unless you are on a road trip exceeding 250 miles (which isn't that often for me). And on those road trips, I personally NEED a 20 to 30 minute break after 3 1/2 hours of driving. Free Tesla electric fuel is just icing on the cake. Even then, you are not required to stand next to the car while it is fueling. You're free to do anything you want to do.

Drivers who have never owned an EV still assume that refueling an EV is "waiting time", because that's all they know. Filling up a gas tank 52 weeks a year times 5 minutes is several hours of waiting! OMG!

 

[Lloyd]

This needs to be the common answer for this: "I spend less time waiting for a charge in my Tesla than I ever spent gassing an ICE!"

The only time that I wait for charging is while on 'Road Trips' where I need to charge to get to my destination ie: more than ~250 miles. ICE drivers do not consider that you leave your garage with a full charge every morning without any waiting at all!!!

- - - Updated - - -

This needs to be the common answer for this: "I spend less time waiting for a charge in my Tesla than I ever spent gassing an ICE!"

The only time that I wait for charging is while on 'Road Trips' where I need to charge to get to my destination ie: more than ~250 miles. ICE drivers do not consider that you leave your garage with a full charge every morning without any waiting at all!!!

 

[Zapped]

Lloyd, had to read your post twice. I'm usually quite good at Hocus-Focus but couldn't find anything different in your --Updated --

Some other time saving points are "I don't have to wait for my engine to warm up"; "I don't need remote start" ; "I can fuel up my car with my smart phone app" (if it's plugged in of course) . Ironically in colder climates the ICE owners have to plug in their cars too.