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Signature Angst
- Thread starter walla2
- Start date
That appears to be what some people expected. I love my Sig car but would never ask Tesla to keep others from driving a production car for even a week just to make me feel better about my Sig premium. I knew I was paying more so it wasn't a surprise.
Sure, but assuming sig owners would have otherwise been early production owners, the early productions have already gotten over 7 months free connectivity. We won't know what the sig connectivity was worth until all is said and done.
Agreed.
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I'll assume you're asking me since you quoted me. And I'll also assume you mean "DID".
For the U.S., I didn't think they'd hold it up but for Europe they probably should have. They have plenty of production to fulfill in the U.S. to allow for Europe Sigs to deliver before Europe GP.
I'm not clear why/where people get "shut down the factory" as the only option for sequencing deliveries properly.
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I don't think I've heard anyone asking for this, except maybe for Sig Red vs. 2103 Red -- which is kind of exactly what they did. In fact, IIRC George mentioned this as a reason when he was interviewed about it.
That makes sense. Of course if some one getting it for free cancels it when they start charging then the savings is gone. The point was it is one possible benefit, not that it would make the Sog premium disappear.
Did Tesla over promise on early delivery for some people? Maybe,
It all depends on when they ordered really. Some people jumped about 7,000+ people while others like myself who were around P300 before upgrading it made maybe 2 months difference. They never said they would hold production so that the Sig owners could savor their exclusive purchase while others waited for their car. They always said they would continue with production.
Ok. I thought some people had argued in the past there should have been a delay but maybe I am remembering that incorrectly.
What is the angst about then? That a few production cars got delivered a week or two before some Sig customers (outside the 5 cars that had significant problems)? I think the same things are getting talked about again and again here. You seem to have been affected by this issue more than I was so I can only speak from my experience.
Additional premium for questionable benefit (as if the early deposit meant nothing). Promises of "exclusive features" (exterior and interior coloring are not the "features" that some of us had in mind). "Early delivery that wasn't" (for some) etc. And so forth. But yes, once again going in circles.
Some loose thoughts, stream of consciousness...
White interior - I didn't opt for it because of discoloration concerns. Personal choice, not a Tesla problem. But it means that "feature" has no value for me.
Sig Red exterior - One of the reasons I got the Sig. Definitely not worth $5k to me though.
Early delivery - Meaning, earlier than if I got a GP vehicle. For me this was definitely true, but I figured my larger reservation deposit covered this.
Limited number - Eroded somewhat by the bait-and-switch on the "1,000 in U.S. market" to "1,200 in continent market". It put me in a position of having to consider "if they give me a VIN > 1,000 will I go to the lawyers to get my $10k finalization money back". Putting customers in that position is horrible.
Sig badging - Barely noticeable. An exclusive spoiler style or wheels would be worthy of calling this out as a noteworthy benefit. The current etching is nice but contributes little to justifying the premium $ for Sig.
Negatives with the "all" package - I wouldn't have paid for a parcel shelf on a GP vehicle.
When describing the vehicle, often I wouldn't even bring up Sig because I can't/couldn't justify the premium. I couldn't recommend the Sig because of the erosion and the unjustifiable premium. I can't recommend the Sig for the X because I frankly don't trust (yet?) that they will have learned and will make it good for X. We have evidence from the EU thread that they haven't adjusted the offering for EU -- though to be fair it's a "launched product" whereas for X they still have some time before options and pricing are out.
Would I do it again? Probably yes. Why? I dunno. I would do Perf again. I can't justify that either. I'm often left with the feeling that Tesla knew they had us where they wanted us and milked us for the extra $3-5k because, simply, they could -- the market would bear it. The primary cause of Angst for me is that I don't like feeling this way about this company.
Ford? Chevy? I wouldn't care. Tesla: I do care. Maybe it's a cult thing.
Hopefully that clarifies.
White interior - I didn't opt for it because of discoloration concerns. Personal choice, not a Tesla problem. But it means that "feature" has no value for me.
Sig Red exterior - One of the reasons I got the Sig. Definitely not worth $5k to me though.
Early delivery - Meaning, earlier than if I got a GP vehicle. For me this was definitely true, but I figured my larger reservation deposit covered this.
Limited number - Eroded somewhat by the bait-and-switch on the "1,000 in U.S. market" to "1,200 in continent market". It put me in a position of having to consider "if they give me a VIN > 1,000 will I go to the lawyers to get my $10k finalization money back". Putting customers in that position is horrible.
Sig badging - Barely noticeable. An exclusive spoiler style or wheels would be worthy of calling this out as a noteworthy benefit. The current etching is nice but contributes little to justifying the premium $ for Sig.
Negatives with the "all" package - I wouldn't have paid for a parcel shelf on a GP vehicle.
When describing the vehicle, often I wouldn't even bring up Sig because I can't/couldn't justify the premium. I couldn't recommend the Sig because of the erosion and the unjustifiable premium. I can't recommend the Sig for the X because I frankly don't trust (yet?) that they will have learned and will make it good for X. We have evidence from the EU thread that they haven't adjusted the offering for EU -- though to be fair it's a "launched product" whereas for X they still have some time before options and pricing are out.
Would I do it again? Probably yes. Why? I dunno. I would do Perf again. I can't justify that either. I'm often left with the feeling that Tesla knew they had us where they wanted us and milked us for the extra $3-5k because, simply, they could -- the market would bear it. The primary cause of Angst for me is that I don't like feeling this way about this company.
Ford? Chevy? I wouldn't care. Tesla: I do care. Maybe it's a cult thing.
Hopefully that clarifies.
That makes sense. In the end though Tesla sold out their NA Sig list so enough people saw value in the minimal package it provided to sign the finalization documents.
Hopefully they add more value to the Model X Sig list but not enough that it creates an entire new angst thread when people start comparing benefits of the X Sig over S Sig.
Hopefully they add more value to the Model X Sig list but not enough that it creates an entire new angst thread when people start comparing benefits of the X Sig over S Sig.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
You better be giving rides at Teslive 2015.I'm okay with Sig X providing more value than Sig S did.
I think the point we're making is that early delivery in no way implies a gap, and pointing out the illogic of ever assuming it would. You seemed to be arguing otherwise in the text I quoted (that somehow they shouldn't have advertised early delivery as a sig feature), but if not I apologize. In general I agree with your general assessments of the positives. I do notice sig red cars when I see them and in my mind there is a premium there (they will only get more exclusive the more production cars are on the road), but other than that and whatever the somewhat early delivery was worth there isn't much. Definitely not worth the premium, especially if you didn't want the sig red. I'm surprised more people didn't downgrade when the pricing was announced, but I guess that after having your deposit in that long it's hard to give up the dream.
I think I've made it pretty clear that I was asserting that nobody has made this argument in the affirmative to my recollection (including me). The only ones that have raised it are those saying "I don't understand why people are expecting...".
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
Just to be clear, this is the exact statement of yours that I originally disagreed with:
I believe that part of the sig marketing is both accurate and appropriate, and any disappointment by people in relation to that part of the sig marketing is not Tesla's fault, because how the deliveries happened in the US was pretty much how one might expect them to have happened (they burned through the production backlog faster than expected, but that has nothing to do with when early productions were delivered). Whether it is worth the premium or not is up to people to decide for themselves. Now in Europe if it ends up that a significant percentage of european production cars are delivered before signature cars, then I believe they have reason to complain.
Let's meet back in another year and discuss this all again! I keep promising myself not to click on this thread, but can't help it.
mknox
Well-Known Member
I think you make some good points, but I never understood this one. There were always going to be 1,200 Signature cars, and the Canada / US market has always been pretty close to interchangeable anyway. I'm pretty sure at least one US Sig ended up registered in Canada. Are you saying that just the Canadians should have received cars with > 1,000 VINs?
FWIW, I backed away from the Sig series when the (what was it, 6.1%) import duty was announced. The first Canadian Sigs were delivered at the end of December, and I got my Production at the beginning of March (and I wasn't the first). So for the sake of a bit over two months and the Sig Red color which I really like, I got everything I wanted for thousands less.
1. It's not 1,200 Signature cars. It's something like 2,500 worldwide, IIRC. So "always" doesn't apply since it's incorrect.
2. They advertised "first 1,000" on all of the U.S. facing web pages. There was no mention of North America or Canada. I had little-to-no awareness of the "Canadian 200" until relatively late (after my finalization IIRC).
3. The markets are not interchangeable. There are different vehicle regulations. There are different taxation implications. There's the NAFTA stuff, etc.
4. I wasn't saying anything about Canadian VINs (or Europe VINs). What I was saying is that Tesla presented "first 1,000 VINs will be U.S. market signature vehicles; no more, no less".
The "1,200 North America" thing only surfaced later after some quiet conversations were had between customers and Tesla representatives. It wasn't until I finally heard from, IIRC, George that we got an official comment on it. It fits the troubling pattern of "officially say one thing and tout it in your marketing, and then do something subtlely different behind the scenes". I still have "trust wounds" with Tesla from this debacle, as you can plainly see. I don't like feeling "played" or "used", and the whole Signature experience had multiple instances that resulted in that feeling. Some people feel similarly about the pano shade, the center console, the netting in the frunk, etc. I don't like it. It reflects poorly on Tesla, and didn't need to happen. Yet this kind of stuff keeps happening. And it's rarely if ever discussed on the blog -- which would be the perfect avenue for airing these issues and being open with customers.
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Regarding numbers...
Suppose you were interested in the final 5 (or whatever it was) Roadsters. You made a deposit. You finalized your config. You were lining up your financing. And then you hear on TMC -- not from Tesla, but TMC -- that now there is an "Extra Final 3 Roadsters". Would you not be upset? What if it was "Extra Final 300 Roadsters"? What about "Extra Final 1"? For me it's not about the number. It's about "there will be a limited number of X" and then behind the scenes they quietly make it "X+n" with no official announcement. Would it not come across to you as shady and erode your trust?
To my knowledge, we still don't know how many U.S. Market Signature Model S vehicles were made. We have anecdotal evidence (Teslive) that the VINs go up to something like 1094. Who knows how many holes there are, so it's probably less than 1094 actual vehicles. But it's in this state of "limited edition run of 1,000 vehicles" of which there are somewhere in the range of [1001,1094] actual vehicles. Is Tesla really this bad at math, or do they just not care?
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