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Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2016

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We can do all these mumbo jumbo speculation. Or we can simply look at how it worked out for Model X.
32k worldwide reservations, with $5k to $40k deposits led to 15k worldwide deliveries in one year, after 1-2 years of delay in launching.

I won't be expecting more than 200k deliveries (most optimistic) of M3 in the first year. If the federal tax credit is not extended, then there will be a big price hike to customers after the first 80k-100k deliveries in US.

I shouldn't even entertain your drivel long enough to respond, but your argument is easily refuted.

Model X is only just starting to be built for RHD countries. Three of Tesla's largest non-US countries included (UK, Australia, NZ). I'm not suggesting that there weren't cancellations, because there were, but to suggest that 17k reservations were cancelled (more than half!) is equally ridiculous. Furthermore, if I gave a company 40k of my money, and they delayed getting the product to me by as much as two years, I'd think about getting my money back too -- there's better things I can do with it while waiting out the delays. That doesn't mean those people won't buy one now that they're available. Early MX's had some teething issues, which also would have contributed to some buyers deciding to wait longer for theirs. Never mind that the sort of people who buy $100k cars have a very different demand curve than people who buy $35k cars.

Model X was designed to be a technology flagship, to demonstrate the possible. Tesla had hubris problems with the Model X. That meant that the initial part of the ramp took longer than expected while they hammered out those problems. Model 3's primary design directive is manufacturability. To expect that Model 3 will be delayed simply because Model X was is to suggest that Tesla's design team is unable to achieve their design goal AND that Tesla is incapable of learning from their mistakes. Both things they've repeatedly demonstrated to be false.

There is endless evidence from other jurisdictions that altering or removing the tax credit does not impact demand sufficiently to cause a problem for Tesla. Remember - Tesla is production limited, not demand limited. Until you start having a problem selling every car you produce, price is not the limiting factor, and so the tax credit's presence or absence changes the bottom line zero. For most people, its not the deciding factor in whether or not they buy the car -- its not like you're going to be able to buy some other equally compelling car instead and get the credit.

If you really think that Model 3 will only sell 200,000 units, when almost that many people put $1000 down to buy one before they even knew what it looked like? I don't know how to help you.

Also, you seem to misunderstand how the tax credit works: After the 200,000th car is delivered to a US customer, Tesla gets two full quarters where they're still eligible for the full tax credit to every buyer. Then two more quarters where you get half. In other words, if you sell the 200,000th car on January 1, 2018, it isn't until January 1, 2019 that the customer feels the full $7,500 differential.
 
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Well, either Reuters is lying or the spokesperson is lying.

See the Reuters article since @myusername quoted that directly.

Tesla says Model 3 deliveries for new bookings in 2018

Direct quote from Reuters, sure.

That's not a direct quote from Alexis Georgeson, which means Reuters paraphrased what she said.

Elon said on Twitter in response to one of the articles about this today that it is indicating the first year of sales is sold out. Mid 2017 + 1 year is a date greater than Dec 2017.
 
Rumours from Tesla employees, second hand via people who asked them.

Tesla said they wouldn't announce further changes to the number. This is easy to understand the logic behind. 373k is a big number (its approximately an entire year's sales of the entire segment that Model 3 will be a part of). Why keep telegraphing to your competitors exactly how screwed they are, and exactly how much they need to do right now to try to remain competitive. Better to keep them in the dark until you're actually shipping the product they can't compete with, or else they might decide to find a way to compete.

Tesla employees say 500k? How many do Mercedes employees say based on the parts that they supply to Tesla?
In other words, no one with a unbiased view has provided anything remotely resembling a "rumor". It is all just self serving WAG at this point.

As to why not "telegraph to competitors"?

Seriously? Tesla is THE telegraph company.
- They put out "secret plan" to tell every one what the plan is.
- They update that plan...after telegraphing that they plan to provide an update on that plan...stay tuned!
- They make announcements about a plan to make an announcement.
- They telegraphed about the X, the E, the Y the trucks, etc. etc.

As to the other side of why to announce, I would expect the stock price, their subsequent ability to raise money, close the SCTY deal, etc. would have a huge boost with a 500k announcement and a much better response to Goldman's downgrade than "we have a new announcement coming".
 
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^ Reading comprehension.... and ignore.
We can do all these mumbo jumbo speculation. Or we can simply look at how it worked out for Model X.
32k worldwide reservations, with $5k to $40k deposits led to 15k worldwide deliveries in one year, after 1-2 years of delay in launching.

I won't be expecting more than 200k deliveries (most optimistic) of M3 in the first year. If the federal tax credit is not extended, then there will be a big price hike to customers after the first 80k-100k deliveries in US.

That is an excellent point that people here just don't seem to want to discuss.

It is not just that they had 32k reservations and delivered 15k, it is that if you order an X today, it has a 2 week delivery. So they don't seem to be working off much pent up reservations.

But maybe they don't want to "telegraph to competitors" so they going to crank out the 15k this quarter along with the new orders, so call it a total of 24k X for Q4.
 
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can TSLA do a NFLX next week
entirely possible even highly probable
NFLX was down in the last 4 ER until yesterday then it went up 19% today with accelerating EPS and revenues
TSLA has been range bound despite last several ERs
could this be the ER that proves to be breakthrough?
highly likely
even if we go up say 20% to $240 range after ER, it will be the beginning of the major move with tons of upside over the next several quarters
the charts look positive all across
exciting times to be a TSLA investor
consider the fact that TSLA market cap is only $29.67B while a moribund has been YHOO has a market cap of $39.67B (albeit most of it due to its BABA stake)
NFLX market cap $50.93B
which company has more potential to change the world over the next 10 years? TSLA vs YHOO vs NFLX. I'm making random comparisons to make a point that a company of Tesla's caliber is grossly undervalued by the market and TSLA market cap of $30B can change for the better in a heartbeat!
TSLA has been rangebound between $260 and $180 since February 2014, almost 3 years now and the time for an eventual resolution is drawing near, this stock sits tight right on its long term 13 Q EMA, this is the fifth straight down quarter which i believe will not end as down but instead highly positive and may change for the better ASAP next week
so let's not talk falsely now cause the hour is getting late
 
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can TSLA do a NFLX next week
...
which company has more potential to change the world over the next 10 years? !

Investors get the potential of TSLA which is why they have a huge valuation relative to their financial performance.
There will be an increased focus on the ability to deliver on the potential.

If they nailed the last quarter, provide excellent guidance for Q4 (which is also what Netflix did, to show it isn't going to be a one-off), throw in a Model 3 update (we broke 500k reservations and are in early production or something to show production is on track), etc.

Different question.
Let's say Tesla nails the growth and profitability targets and gets to GM-level of revenue and profit in 10 years. What would be an appropriate valuation for Tesla at that point?
 
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No new information but here's a another demonstration of Nvidia's technology applied to driving autonomously.

Tesla chip maker demonstrates self-driving technology built on AI

Anybody with big doubts about how AI driver development is progressing should watch this. Unlike these guys Tesla and Google already have well established suits of "training materials" that don't require a real car for AI to train. Just play back recorded sensor input from real world situations and see if AI picks the necessary skills up.
 
i'm thinking you will never get this answer

That is so blatantly trolling behaviour. It's obvious that Turing was asking the forum and NOT Elon Musk, yet he couldn't help himself. His past attempts at being civil were just to mock us. I've added him to my ignore list and am sorry for not doing so sooner. :(
 
can TSLA do a NFLX next week
entirely possible even highly probable
NFLX was down in the last 4 ER until yesterday then it went up 19% today with accelerating EPS and revenues
TSLA has been range bound despite last several ERs
could this be the ER that proves to be breakthrough?
highly likely
even if we go up say 20% to $240 range after ER, it will be the beginning of the major move with tons of upside over the next several quarters
the charts look positive all across
exciting times to be a TSLA investor
consider the fact that TSLA market cap is only $29.67B while a moribund has been YHOO has a market cap of $39.67B (albeit most of it due to its BABA stake)
NFLX market cap $50.93B
which company has more potential to change the world over the next 10 years? TSLA vs YHOO vs NFLX. I'm making random comparisons to make a point that a company of Tesla's caliber is grossly undervalued by the market and TSLA market cap of $30B can change for the better in a heartbeat!
TSLA has been rangebound between $260 and $180 since February 2014, almost 3 years now and the time for an eventual resolution is drawing near, this stock sits tight right on its long term 13 Q EMA, this is the fifth straight down quarter which i believe will not end as down but instead highly positive and may change for the better ASAP next week
so let's not talk falsely now cause the hour is getting late

I hope you're right. But I think it's more likely that we don't see the major move up you're anticipating until one of the following:
1. it becomes clear to investors that SCTY actually helps TSLA's financial position
2. we see substantial revenue from Tesla Energy
3. or we see substantial revenue from Model 3
 
Anybody with big doubts about how AI driver development is progressing should watch this. Unlike these guys Tesla and Google already have well established suits of "training materials" that don't require a real car for AI to train. Just play back recorded sensor input from real world situations and see if AI picks the necessary skills up.
And above mentioned is basically simulation of real world...
 
My point is, beginning some time in Q2 2016, the market price of ZEV plummeted due to change in regulation and surplus accumulated by other OEMs over the years. It could be closer to $4k per ZEV before that time, but dramatically dropped down after that time - I don't know to what extent but think it is far less than $3-4k, based on regulations, current OEM productions, OEM ZEV balance, and Elon's frustration. And unless the regulation changes soon, I don't think the market price for ZEV will go up. Therefore, we shouldn't expect ZEV revenue surprise in Q3 ER or any ER in the future.

Well, this point is irrelevant because we DO know enough to prove beyond any doubt that majority of the 80,277 ZEV credits sold by Tesla between October 1 2015 and August 31 2016 were booked in Q3. I have made this point before, but you either did not follow it or just refusing to acknowledge it. As far as I am concerned this is certain. I will lay it out methodically one last time for the benefit of the Forum. I am fine with us having differing opinions.

STEP 1.
We know from shareholder's letters that Tesla booked $8MM ZEVs in 2015Q4, $57MM in 2016Q1, and "insigificant" amount in 2016Q2. Therefore total of $65MM ($57MM+$8MM) worth of ZEV credits were booked before the California CARB changed the rules.

STEP 2.
Based on Fortune reported market price of ZEV of $3,000 to $4,000, assuming average price of $3,500, it follows that Tesla sold $65MM / $3.5K = 18,571 credits in 2015Q4 and 2016Q1

STEP 3.
Since 18,571 ZEV credits were booked in 2015Q4 and 2016Q1, the remaining 82,277 - 18,571 = 63,706 ZEV credits were booked in Q3.

STEP 4.
From the first post on this subject I expressed my opinion that price Tesla got for this dump of credits in Q3 got to be discounted. My WAG was about $1,500, @esk8mw assumed $2,500. Your assumption of zero or close to zero does not make any sense. Why would Tesla gift these ZEV points to Chrysler, Ford and Honda? There is absolutely no reason for them to sell these ZEV credits unless it brings meaningful contribution to the bottom line in Q3 - precisely the point you dismiss based on general considerations, but contrary to specific data presented above.

So using $1,500 - $2,500 range conservatively yields Q3 bottom line addition of $95.6MM - $159.3MM. Others may discount the approximately 63,706 ZEV credits booked in Q3 in some other way, but your suggestion that credits sold in Q3 are inconsequential is not consistent with known facts.

STEP 5
Your suggestion that Chrysler and Ford had enough credits "for many years" and therefore had no incentive to buy them at significant discount is just not correct. As shown here Fiat Chrysler and Ford sold 176,212 and 173,976 vehicles in the last CARB reporting period. Based on 14% ZEV requirements for model year (MY) 2016 and 2017 they respectively needed 49,339 and 48,713 credits to cover their ZEV obligations for MY 2016 and 2017.

STEP 6
Based on link in STEP 5 above Fiat Chrysler and Ford bought 37,450 and 35,000 ZEV credits during the last CARB reporting period. They also had a balance of 68,308 and 62,566 credits at the end of the last reporting period. Therefore at the beginning of the last reporting period their balance was 30,858 and 27,566 respectively.

STEP 7
Comparing ZEV credits required by Chrysler and Ford to cover them through August 31 2017 shown in STEP 5 above and their balance of ZEV credits at the begining of the last reporting period (September 1, 2015) in STEP 6 shows that they were 18,481 and 21,147 ZEV credits short to carry them just through August 31 of 2017. This proves beyond any doubt that these credits were worth much more that $100 you've suggested. If anything, this highlights that my calculation of Q3 bottom line impact is conservative.

CONCLUSION
So once again, all of the points you've brought to discount the ZEV impact on Q3 just do not square with facts. Based on the conservative estimate, minimum impact of ZEV credits to Q3 will be $95.6MM - $159.3MM.

Finally, I want to thank you for the tenacity with which you lay out your opinion. Although I believe I shown conclusively that it is wrong, I would not be able to do it with clarity unless questioned in a serious way, which you always can be counted on to do well. :)
 
LOL
Another "Tesla killer" bites the dust well in advance of actually producing even a prototype. How dumb can you be??

Snap1.png
 
you are missing an option:

3) they won't be delivering M3s until Q4 2017 so nearly all deliveries won't start until 2018.

This is reasonable expectation and almost in line with what Elon himself said on Q2 CC. Markets expect less.
Don't be tempted to quote July 1st, everyone here knows that is internal date expected to be missed, as stated by Elon; this is date 'deliver or be punished' to help focus efforts, knowing there will be failures to deliver

BTW, congrats, you are the best troll ever. So effortlessly crossing the line of 1. raising valid concerns to 2. pure trolling and irking other members (discussion for the sake of discussion, kinda sw dev. thing :) Back and forth, back and forth, awesome job
 
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