Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2016

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Status
Not open for further replies.
This might be a dumb question, but is it known for sure that Elon can't, or isn't loaning his shares to shorts? It would be a heck of a lot of income for him, and if he is full of confidence that tesla is going to succeed, it would be satisfying to collect all those borrowing fees, then have the shorts get wiped out in the end when the stock exploded upwards some day. Also, if things started looking grim, he could always recall shares and cause a short squeeze to pop the stock. I don't really believe any of this, but it is fun to consider.

Disclosure filings don't go into this level of detail, but we do know that Elon has his shares in his own margin account and is borrowing against them to finance his lifestyle and other things. Ie. He is using his own shares as collateral and borrowing cash for personal use. To the extent that the shares are used as collateral, they can't be used for anything else.

Do note that this is a very real risk factor against TSLA. If Another 9/11 attack started and the stock market tanked, TSLA stock price would get hit harder than most other stocks due to its high beta. If the price got low enough, Elon's margin account would be forced to automatically sell his TSLA stock to cover his loans, thus kicking off a nice downward spiral. This isn't far fetched, it has happened to CEOs before that had similarly margined own company stock. All it takes is some external catalyst (or internal catalyst if the gigafactory blew up or something).
 
  • Disagree
Reactions: 150 kWh
There's seems to be some misunderstanding about institutional securities lending.

Just a few comments:

- If an institution is reporting a long position, it includes any shares it's loaned out. That's why, theoretically, reported shareholdings can exceed shares outstanding.

I have a question about this first point. If this is the case, why is the total holding of all institution holders just 100M shares (or 67% of total float) shown on NASDAQ? Elon has about 21% of the 149M shares. Short interest as of 6/30 (to correspond with the instituion holdings) is about 21%. If the 67% for the aggregated outsider institution holdings includes shares sold short, that would mean retail investors have a collective of 100%-21%-(67%-21%)=33% of the whole company. Is this possible?
 
I'm not talking about SCTY part contributing positive cash flow to the TSLA business in the next 2-3 years, I'm talking about it happening in the next 2-3 quarters, accounting for the interest they need to pay on the debt. Based on their most recent income statement, it is very likely if they scale back on growth. And this would help in M3 development and ramp up. And why would they spend 500M on servicing SCTY debt? SCTY paid 56M for the total interest and other expenses in Q2. The net result of having SCTY merged would be providing more cash to TSLA to build the service centers in South Korea, not taking it away.

I worded that incorrectly. Taking on the debt from SolarCity, a significant part is recourse, will cut into the willingness of large borrowers to fund Tesla. Remember that even Tesla had to announce that it ran into the limits of a credit line for one important partner and that convertible bond holders are starting to convert debt to stock (at a small loss wrt last debt trading). Clearly the debt sky is not limitless even for Tesla itself.

Another often heard claim : "Tesla could simply cut SolarCity OpEx to basically zero by axing the sales and install side". Your 'scaling back' is a less drastic version of the same thing. But then again, wasn't the great benefit of this merger to create synergies and combine product strengths? If you axe one side of that synergy before the merger even happens then one could reasonable ask : "why was that side needed in the first place?!?"

Back to the storage price. Yes I didn't look at what inverter or hourly price of the electricians the other battery providers would have their customer pay for. But the bottom line is, they still need to pay for it. How much are they paying? Could be lower than using a TE, could be higher, who knows? But we know the battery itself offered by Tesla is a lot cheaper.

Exactly, we agree. Could be lower could be higher. We simply don't know. And battery itself being cheaper buys the end user nothing if mandatory extra equipment or installation costs are higher. Also see one of the latest videos of @DaveT where he discusses his visit to the Gigafactory. How a friend of his bailed on a Powerwall installation because everything that came on top of the battery was just making it way too expensive. Together with the story of @ecarfan, that's two credible testimonies of a functional integration of a Powerwall ringing up to significant costs to the point that the price of the battery is not the decisive factor at all.
 
I have a question about this first point. If this is the case, why is the total holding of all institution holders just 100M shares (or 67% of total float) shown on NASDAQ? Elon has about 21% of the 149M shares. Short interest as of 6/30 (to correspond with the instituion holdings) is about 21%. If the 67% for the aggregated outsider institution holdings includes shares sold short, that would mean retail investors have a collective of 100%-21%-(67%-21%)=33% of the whole company. Is this possible?

I will take liberty to answer this question - understanding this mechanics is at the core of understanding of my RTSST (recalled triggered short squeeze theory). Here is how the math works:

Total outstanding shares: 100%

Total shares in circulation: outstanding + short interest = 100% + 21% = 121% (yes, short interest adds additional shares into circulation. The party that lent shares, still has them on record, but can't vote them until lent shares returned, either because entity that borrowed them closed short position, or because they were recalled by the entity which lent them. For the purposes of the record keeping all shares that institutions own, including the shares that they lent, are reported on forms 13F, data from which are summarized on the Nasdaq Site)

Total institutional shares: 67%

The retail shares: shares in circulation - institutional shares - Elon shares = 121% - 67% - 21% = 33% (this , of course, neglecting shares held by other insiders, which is pretty good approximation as Elon owns overwhelming proportion of the insider shares)

Although majority of shares sold short were lent by institutions, not all of them were, as some were lent by retail SH.

The above was basis of my napkin math awhile back in this thread. I should probably update it as it was based on Q1 figures. The bottom line conclusion was that before voting there will need to be recall of 22M shares or a huge 40% of the retail shares (as institutions are not likely to sell before the voting, and, incidentally, based on statistic collected in the research Article I linked above, they are not likely to sell after the voting either. I guess there is caveat here - unless there is major run-up in SP). This potential need to buy shares by short sellers in the quantity equal to 40% of the quantity of retail shares would result in a major event. I believe this was the reason for Elon's 'unwise' tweet.
 
Last edited:
Didn't read past the first paragraph, [Krugerrand]

Read it and weep. Solar City is so old school what with hustling a commodity with severely declining unit cost and being largely a creature of political kickback schemes, ie tax breaks by States/Feds, I'm surprised it has managed to last as long as it has. Real value is buying
a solar kit from Home Depot and having a local electrician/installer handle the job. Then it is assessible and part of the property's value. I think today most potential customers will shun this leasing scheme in favor of outright ownership.
--
 
Matias:
Boald statement.

I assume you've ment "bold"? There is nothing bold about my statement. Tesla is the first and biggest customer that is interested in new battery developments that are actually useful.
If this SolidEnergy had any real improvement in their hands, it would already be incorporated in current or upcoming battery recipes - tesla / panasonic would bought them out. Or some other big battery manufacturer.
And even if that was not the case - what effect can a company that can produces maybe 10MWh of batteries per year have on another company that is producing 100GWh?
That is one thousand times bigger production, one thousand times more cars produced.

Battery capacity is a solved problem. Battery production capacity is the real limt of EVs.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: madodel
Didn't read past the first paragraph, [Krugerrand]
Read it and weep. Solar City is so old school what with hustling a commodity with severely declining unit cost and being largely a creature of political kickback schemes, ie tax breaks by States/Feds, I'm surprised it has managed to last as long as it has. Real value is buying
a solar kit from Home Depot and having a local electrician/installer handle the job. Then it is assessible and part of the property's value. I think today most potential customers will shun this leasing scheme in favor of outright ownership.
--

People lease cars because they are a discretionary/disposable option and a need (to get to work, travel).
There are people who lease furniture (Aarons, Rent-a-center, etc.) - are these the target market?
 
For investor, it is dangerous not to read any information, which contradicts one's opinion. I read both bull and bear articles and try to keep neutral mental position.

For investor, it is dangerous to give credence to information that you know is patently false and it's a waste of time and energy. I read both bull and bear articles, I just choose wisely. If I want to read fiction, I'll pull out a Stephen King novel.
 
Yes, according to Tesla, there would only be one owner of record in the case of a share loaned to a short and bought by someone other than the loaning party, however, in terms of their position, they still have an ownership right to that share. They did not sell it, they loaned it to someone else, on the understanding that it would be returned at a later date. The short has an obligation to return it to them on demand or of their own accord, independent of the price they must pay to obtain the share to return. While the share is loaned, the original owner cannot use the rights afforded by ownership, such as voting and receiving dividends, but he still technically owns it.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: sunhelm
Disclosure filings don't go into this level of detail, but we do know that Elon has his shares in his own margin account and is borrowing against them to finance his lifestyle and other things. Ie. He is using his own shares as collateral and borrowing cash for personal use. To the extent that the shares are used as collateral, they can't be used for anything else.

What's he doing with the money? Buying Ms. Heard dinner?

Going to need some proof that the guy who used his last penny to pay employees, leaving himself without money to pay his own rent, is now borrowing against his shares to fund personal stuffs.
 
Didn't read past the first paragraph, [Krugerrand]

Read it and weep. Solar City is so old school what with hustling a commodity with severely declining unit cost and being largely a creature of political kickback schemes, ie tax breaks by States/Feds, I'm surprised it has managed to last as long as it has. Real value is buying
a solar kit from Home Depot and having a local electrician/installer handle the job. Then it is assessible and part of the property's value. I think today most potential customers will shun this leasing scheme in favor of outright ownership.
--

It's a good thing you cued me to weep, otherwise I wouldn't have known to do it. (BTW, why am I weeping?)
 
.

Edit: The article really could be construed as positive because it shows how good autopilot is generally, that the driver would trust it as much as he did...

Yes!
It is positive since it shows that although he drove this route before, the car was not constrained by any facts or learning about the route.

It is also positive since it shows the car kept accelerating after the impact.The car did not want to be late! That shows real determination.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.