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Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2016

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Are you sure? Patience may just reward the market to the competition. The latest PV magazin (German publication on solar energy) lists 312 battery storage solutions for solar energy, available right now in Germany. The powerwall is simply one of the many competitors. At the same time we are quibbling in this thread if pre-orders for the lonely competing car product, the Bolt (which must still show that it can actually compete) are 100 or maybe 200 times lower. That's the difference between Tesla Automotive and Tesla Energy in a nutshell for me.
It might help you to see more of the difference with Tesla energy if you look at the prices and capacities of those solutions rather than just looking at the number of offerings. That's where you will see Tesla's moat.
 
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They will simply sell at a loss. They did it for PV and it worked out. They'll just do it again for batteries. Or they'll build their own Gigafactory. Or partner with Panasonic even.
Right. They have a lot of US money brought in from decades of producing our goods. Why not build a market with higher levels of incentives than the USA has for such work. Which country will continue to spend more of their children's future wealth today? Don't forget the steel dumping they are doing now into the USA as well. In a way, it is an economic war where the casualties are not bodies but jobs and a spread of welfare. We also see Ford moving to build EVs in Mexico and GM starting to build cars in China destined for the USA.

Panasonic makes good cells. So does China now - they were behind the Koreans and Japanese last decade but necessity is the mother of invention and their home-country is becoming the new world center of innovation.
 
The trouble for any competitor in either the automotive or storage markets that might consider building their own gigafactory, is that a factory of that scale needs huge customers, right away, or its going to die. You can't build it and hope the demand will appear.

TM knew when they set out on this journey that they had built a car that is top of its class measured by sales, with demand continuing to grow at a steep rate. They knew that they would soon be moving down market to a price point with much higher segment demand. It wasn't a big stretch to believe that they could sell 500k cars/yr if they could capture a similar market share with Model 3 as they have with Model S.

Could someone else make a viable argument for demand? Sure, if they can build a compelling product that actually competes with Tesla, but Tesla has a 6 year or so headstart on proving their product and the demand for their product. GM Bolt is a perfect example, it's in the same price sector as Model 3, by an incumbent automaker, but its not getting anywhere near the demand. They wont be able to justify building a gigafactory to meet Bolt demand as it is today. That means they won't be able to get the costs down in the same way as Tesla.

I truly believe the other automakers have dropped the ball big time, and quietly ignored Tesla while Tesla set themselves up the best competitive advantage they could. Right now, Tesla is beating it's competitors because it's the superior product in a market segment with relatively little competition. Once the others start playing catch up, though, it's going to be very easy for Tesla to keep on beating them, either on performance, or on price, and that will make it very difficult to take market share away from Tesla. The gigafactory is a unique advantage nobody else has, because nobody else seems to think electric cars will be the lions share of all vehicle production in the relatively near future. Even if they later start drinking the koolaid, and realize they're wrong, and need to build their own gigafactory, Tesla will have a strong lead for the others to play catch up to.
 
It might help you to see more of the difference with Tesla energy if you look at the prices and capacities of those solutions rather than just looking at the number of offerings. That's where you will see Tesla's moat.

With the Powerpack at $44,500 (not 25) plus expensive inverters - Chinese LiFEPO4 solutions with variant inverters seem like they can be price competitive.
 
The trouble for any competitor in either the automotive or storage markets that might consider building their own gigafactory, is that a factory of that scale needs huge customers, right away, or its going to die. You can't build it and hope the demand will appear.

TM knew when they set out on this journey that they had built a car that is top of its class measured by sales, with demand continuing to grow at a steep rate. They knew that they would soon be moving down market to a price point with much higher segment demand. It wasn't a big stretch to believe that they could sell 500k cars/yr if they could capture a similar market share with Model 3 as they have with Model S.

Could someone else make a viable argument for demand? Sure, if they can build a compelling product that actually competes with Tesla, but Tesla has a 6 year or so headstart on proving their product and the demand for their product. GM Bolt is a perfect example, it's in the same price sector as Model 3, by an incumbent automaker, but its not getting anywhere near the demand. They wont be able to justify building a gigafactory to meet Bolt demand as it is today. That means they won't be able to get the costs down in the same way as Tesla.

I truly believe the other automakers have dropped the ball big time, and quietly ignored Tesla while Tesla set themselves up the best competitive advantage they could. Right now, Tesla is beating it's competitors because it's the superior product in a market segment with relatively little competition. Once the others start playing catch up, though, it's going to be very easy for Tesla to keep on beating them, either on performance, or on price, and that will make it very difficult to take market share away from Tesla. The gigafactory is a unique advantage nobody else has, because nobody else seems to think electric cars will be the lions share of all vehicle production in the relatively near future. Even if they later start drinking the koolaid, and realize they're wrong, and need to build their own gigafactory, Tesla will have a strong lead for the others to play catch up to.

Very well put. Just to add, in order to build compelling product that actually competes with Tesla the incumbents need to build the product which competes with their own ICE offerings. Nobody so far demonstrated their willingness to do this. LEAF can't possibly compete with Versa, Bolt can't possibly compete with Sonic. BMW i3 is designed to scare away anybody considering BMW 3 Series...
 
Even if one of the incumbents builds a 'compelling' EV, how could they possibly compete re: Autopilot? My hunch is that they purchase the database from Google, but Tesla's product is just so far out in front. I'm shocked that 4 years after initial production of Model S that there's absolutely no competition on the horizon. This is the main reason Tesla can make mistakes and still be wildly successful.
 
Even if one of the incumbents builds a 'compelling' EV, how could they possibly compete re: Autopilot? My hunch is that they purchase the database from Google, but Tesla's product is just so far out in front. I'm shocked that 4 years after initial production of Model S that there's absolutely no competition on the horizon. This is the main reason Tesla can make mistakes and still be wildly successful.

After Ford's announcement yesterday I would not say, that there is absolutely no competition in AP within the horizon.
 
Very well put. Just to add, in order to build compelling product that actually competes with Tesla the incumbents need to build the product which competes with their own ICE offerings. Nobody so far demonstrated their willingness to do this. LEAF can't possibly compete with Versa, Bolt can't possibly compete with Sonic. BMW i3 is designed to scare away anybody considering BMW 3 Series...

Totally on point.

That's another big piece of Tesla's advantage. They don't have the inertia of 100 years of building ICEVs. TM is able to build superior products, in large part, because EVs have huge inherent advantages over ICEVs, IF you mitigate the few drawbacks well. Being able to truly compete with Tesla, pretty much means abandoning their ICEV roots and diving in with both feet on a massive overhaul to their business model.

Incumbent automakers have a responsibility not only to their shareholders, but also to their franchised dealer networks. The business model for all incumbent automakers is factory produces cars -> sells them to dealers, dealers sell cars to customers with razor thin margins and make money on the maintenance and upkeep of those cars.

EVs upend that formula, and there is no easy way for an incumbent to sell a compelling EV in volume that won't either cannibalize their own ICEV sales (which the shareholders won't like, and they have a responsibility to maximize income), or have very low value to their dealers due to the reduced ongoing maintenance (and so there is a strong disincentive to selling them to a customer vs a comparable ICEV). We see this already with the compliance EVs and hybrids you can buy today -- the dealers actively avoid selling them.

Truth be told, Nissan (with the LEAF) is probably the closest thing to a no-compromises EV from an incumbent on the market today, and as you said, it still doesn't really compete with its platform cousin in Versa. The 2nd gen Volt is a pretty nice looking car, so GM seems to have stopped making EVs look weird to keep sales down, but its a PHEV, so it keeps all the maintenance requirements of an ICEV. Admittedly, Bolt is pretty much an long-range EV Sonic, so that's got most of the points, but the secret sauce its missing that Tesla 3 has, is that a $35k car needs to feel like a $35k car, not a $15k car thats been converted to EV. All that ignoring that even once they build a compelling EV, that feels like it belongs at its price point, and doesn't make compromises, they still can't begin to touch the Supercharger network.

I honestly don't understand how no other automaker has taken Tesla up on their very reasonable offer of "we will share the supercharger network if you build a long range EV that can use it and pay for your share of the costs".

Even if one of the incumbents builds a 'compelling' EV, how could they possibly compete re: Autopilot? My hunch is that they purchase the database from Google, but Tesla's product is just so far out in front. I'm shocked that 4 years after initial production of Model S that there's absolutely no competition on the horizon. This is the main reason Tesla can make mistakes and still be wildly successful.

I pretty much agree. Tesla can make mistakes, and still be wildly successful, because the incumbents are letting them. They're basically ignoring Tesla and hoping it goes away. They're starting to see the writing on the wall now (as evidenced by all of the grandstanding about what they're going to do in the next 5-10 years to match what Tesla is doing today), but I don't think we've even begun to see the world of hurt for them. The German luxury brands will feel it the most, the fastest, ESPECIALLY BMW. I think Ford/GM/Chrysler/Honda/Toyota/KIA/Mazda and friends have... a little more time before Tesla crushes them to smarten up.
 
After Ford's announcement yesterday I would not say, that there is absolutely no competition in AP within the horizon.

Refresh our memories on the time frame coming out of Ford, pls and tx. Then reasonably estimate where Tesla will be in that time frame given their historical and present rate of innovation.
 
After Ford's announcement yesterday I would not say, that there is absolutely no competition in AP within the horizon.

Except that Ford basically just said "we're going to jump straight to level 4, 5 years from now". Ford hasn't done anything to prove their chops at level 2-3, and Google said almost 10 years ago they would jump straight to level 4, and they're still not there.

Its an incredible claim. As other posters have said, demonstrate your abilities at the baby steps before you go making fantastical claims of being able to run a marathon.
 
Refresh our memories on the time frame coming out of Ford, pls and tx. Then reasonably estimate where Tesla will be in that time frame given their historical and present rate of innovation.

Ford says it will start to sell fully autonomous car (within certain premapped area, e.g. from airport to city) 2021. They will first focus to fleet sales.
 
Except that Ford basically just said "we're going to jump straight to level 4, 5 years from now". Ford hasn't done anything to prove their chops at level 2-3, and Google said almost 10 years ago they would jump straight to level 4, and they're still not there.

Its an incredible claim. As other posters have said, demonstrate your abilities at the baby steps before you go making fantastical claims of being able to run a marathon.

I don't know whether they succeed or not, but they have lately bought in a lot of companies with this knowledge.
 
Teslas business plan and technological lead keeps increasing, now we need a little tinder and then a spark
For an avalanche of short covering. Clearly the competition is deficient.

A better than expected quarter which indicates great execution
Might be it. The vision is there, the execution makes it credible.
 
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I don't know whether they succeed or not, but they have lately bought in a lot of companies with this knowledge.

I don't either, but claiming you can do something in 5 years, which several groups working for 10 years already can barely do, with barely any evidence to prove you can actually execute is a risky strategy.

Its certainly possible they make it - but its also quite likely they don't.

The longer we go without an incumbent showing clear steps toward building truly competitive EVs? The more I'm convinced none of them can survive. My existing thesis says that many of them will fail, but a few will (like Samsung did when the mobile phone industry got upended by Apple and smartphones) manage to innovate and catch up quickly enough to survive.
 
Ford says it will start to sell fully autonomous car (within certain premapped area, e.g. from airport to city) 2021. They will first focus to fleet sales.

So they'll be behind Tesla by 2-3 years and only be providing it for their 'ride hailing' vehicle in select pre-mapped zones - whatever that means - while Tesla will have it an available feature for all their vehicles for the entire planet. Hmm....not really sounding like competition to me. But good luck to them.
 
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Teslas business plan and technological lead keeps increasing, now we need a little tinder and then a spark
For an avalanche of short covering. Clearly the competition is deficient.

A better than expected quarter which indicates great execution
Might be it. The vision is there, the execution makes it credible.

Absolutely. One thing is not believing in the vision. Another is not believing in the execution. Right now it seems pretty clear to all automakers that Tesla vision is surrounded with an aura of inevitability. And either they get their s*** together or they'll perish as some Nokia.
 
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