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What about all those premium fuel costs. Do they get added to the 911, SL, R8 'maintenance costs'? Batteries should be considered 'fuel' unless you include fuel in maintenance with the other cars.
All those cars listed have variants that do 0-60 within the period (or a few 1/10th's of a second) that you specified. In my opinion 1/4 mile is probably a better indicator of a sports cars performance.
Once petroleum is spent there is not a significant long term maintenance cost associated with it. From my understanding, petroleum fuel is akin to electricity and the batteries are a storage medium for electricity. So I am not sure if I understand your comparison of batteries being fuel.
Fuel and electricity are not on the same order of magnitude of cost. Battery and fuel are. You can't compare the costs of the vehicles when you don't consider the fuel costs of the gassers. And the life-cycle cost of the battery is about the life-cycle cost of fuel (at today's fuel costs).
Once your brake pads/oil/spark plugs/clutch plate are spent there is not a significant long term maintenance cost associated with it. This sentence make about as much sense as your gas one.
In my one drag racing event (unofficial), I've smoked two Diablos and couple of Ferraris. I'm betting my annual service costs are lower...
Do you have a breakdown on this with costs? I find this very interesting!
My thinking is as follows:
Fuel (Diesel, Gasoline, Vegetable Oil) is not a fixed cost and can range from free to ~5.00 a gallon in North America
The most expensive component in an Electric Car is the battery, and this is a fixed cost that ranges from Expensive to Very Expensive
Electricity (generator, natural gas, solar) can range from free -offset by PV install but one would need to amortize the cost of the PV install into the electricity costs to .50+/kWh
Lets say Billy Bob drives his 911 for 100k miles and pays $5.00/gallon of gas and gets 25mpg that would be 20 grand in fuel costs
In marketing materials it has been stated that 100k miles is the useful of life of the Tesla Roadster battery pack. I am sure you can get more miles out of the pack but lets use the manufacturers "useful number" 100k as the replacement mileage. We do know that the maximum cost for a battery replacement is $40k. I am sure there will be some discount on a "spent" pack but I am not sure if it will be a 50% discount? Lets not forget the 3k or so in electricity costs @ .10/kwh
What do you think?
wiztecy
Active Member
First of all, anyone who owns a Roadster is an "Early Adopter" of technology. Like any early adopter, these people pave the way to pioneer and keep the technology going and to drop the cost so that others who can't make the sacrifice or afford to use and pave the way forward for the technology. Just think if everyone thought that way, we'd not have the things today that make our lives easier and better.
Look at the Amazon Kindle ebook reader. It started out at $399 per device 5 years ago. Now you can buy one for $79 thats even better. The reason for the high costs of a new technology is that its just that, its new, its not something you buy off the self in terms of making and you pay for this uniqueness (talking about the eInk technology and the internal components. Same with the iPhone, the iPad, Android Tablets, etc). Like an ICE car you can buy a PC for almost nothing now compared to something new, cutting edge, and is unique. Now I ask, do you like having a PC? Did you buy into this technology or did you wait for others to pave the way for you? The goal is to get people to make sacrifices and buy into something you know is right, is better, and that you like to see more of. I know that cost of battery packs are dropping, this is a high cost and unique part of the car. I know that when I need to replace my battery pack after 10 years it will not cost the same as today and will have more capacity and quality compared to the one I'm running. The model-S is an example of the cost being driven down and what I believe quality going up.
Again I love having limited parts to break in terms of an ICE vehicle. My friend just replaced his emissions pump on his Honda and that ran him $800 alone. Lastly there is NO comparison in terms of the quality of life this car brings to me, the top down, no engine sound, no stinky petro exhaust, no coolant that's overflowing into the environment and smelling up the air. I enjoy this car every day, and when I'm not in it, I truly miss it. I have not ever had that feeling from any ICE vehicle or motorcycle I've every ridden.
Look at the Amazon Kindle ebook reader. It started out at $399 per device 5 years ago. Now you can buy one for $79 thats even better. The reason for the high costs of a new technology is that its just that, its new, its not something you buy off the self in terms of making and you pay for this uniqueness (talking about the eInk technology and the internal components. Same with the iPhone, the iPad, Android Tablets, etc). Like an ICE car you can buy a PC for almost nothing now compared to something new, cutting edge, and is unique. Now I ask, do you like having a PC? Did you buy into this technology or did you wait for others to pave the way for you? The goal is to get people to make sacrifices and buy into something you know is right, is better, and that you like to see more of. I know that cost of battery packs are dropping, this is a high cost and unique part of the car. I know that when I need to replace my battery pack after 10 years it will not cost the same as today and will have more capacity and quality compared to the one I'm running. The model-S is an example of the cost being driven down and what I believe quality going up.
Again I love having limited parts to break in terms of an ICE vehicle. My friend just replaced his emissions pump on his Honda and that ran him $800 alone. Lastly there is NO comparison in terms of the quality of life this car brings to me, the top down, no engine sound, no stinky petro exhaust, no coolant that's overflowing into the environment and smelling up the air. I enjoy this car every day, and when I'm not in it, I truly miss it. I have not ever had that feeling from any ICE vehicle or motorcycle I've every ridden.
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Where do you get free diesel or gasoline?
Also, what 911 with comparable performance averages 25mpg?
wiztecy
Active Member
I think he's talking WVO. I tried that route, don't like it. Friggen dirty and greasy, time consuming to pump, filter, let alone trying to find the FREE source is not all that easy. You need to have good quality grease for this too, not Mickey D's or crap that's saturated with water from being reused. Also Not all engines will work properly and you'll grenade your Injection Pump since its too thick, example the VW TDI engine. Biodiesel is the best you can run in that, secondly Biodiesel is the same price as regular diesel if you buy it. Try to make it... I was going to do that route too... its not worth it plus its dangerous. As for WVO, there are ways to do it right if you have an old mercedes like the 70s or 80s or a Cummins diesel and you like going slow. But are you pulling 3.9 0-60 times in that... I'll let you answer. Second of all is it quiet? Hmmm, pondering... The newer diesels are getting quieter but they are not quiet.
It appears the 911 can get anywhere from 16MPG to 23 MPG in the city depending on performance model and 23-27 on the highway. Most of my driving isn't highway, its more city or in between.
Can you find a car that has the same economy and performance as the Roadster for which a regular consumer can buy?
Battery packs will drop in price as time goes on whereas Petro fuel will go up over time.
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Gas Mileage of 2013 Porsche 911
Technical Specs - 911 Carrera 4S - All 911 Models - Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG
911 Carrera's Coupe/Cabs have similar 0-60's and the manual versions get 25mpg.
Waste Vegetable Oil is free and can be used as a fuel in diesel vehicles, Biodiesel can also be manufactured for a fraction of the pump cost of diesel.
My main point is that all fuels are not equal, just like all sources of electricity are not equal. Some are more expensive and resource intensive than others. It is hard to compare fuel and electricity, let alone fuel and batteries.
The base carrera can get close to 25 mpg driving with a feather foot, but they do not compare with the roadster in the performance category. The carrera 4 is closer, but gets worse mileage.
WVO? Its definately even close to free. The time equipment and filters cost plenty. Then you have to pick it up, and while 10 years ago it might have been free, those days are gone.
I believe performance is only one aspect of a "sports car." When you look at power to weight ratio, handling and other factors which collectively make a sports car; I believe the Porsche 911 trumps the Roadster. Is this discussion specifically about 0-60 with the Roadster in Performance mode? To me that seems like a pretty narrow definition of a Sports Car. There was an article a few months ago about a Boxster v Roadster; in that article the Boxster got the nod as a better "sports car."
I had a 911 for many years, and with the manual transmission I have topped 30mpg on several long trips.
These are not knocks on the Roadster, I work in the industry and what Tesla is doing is exciting. There are strengths and weaknesses to the Roadster, I do not think that long term cost/maintenance savings or it being a pure drivers sports car are its strengths. The significant long term maintenance costs are ignored many times; in these comparisons.
Lol. That's what people say when their car is less than impressive.
As for the article, who pays the writers? Is it ad sponsors, who are most likely auto manufacturers?
What year of 911 did you own with that kind of mileage?
This kind of has turned into a Porsche 911 vs. Tesla Roadster topic but everyone has different desires and wants for a 'sports car' so no one car is right for everyone.
As to the original post:
1/ Do you use your car as a daily driver?
Yes
2/ What is your driving style: aggressive, or as an everyday commuter car, etc
average so mostly commuter car
3/ What is the range you usually get from a full battery charge?
181 on a standard charge
4/ how long does it take to charge your battery?
depends on how much I drive but I can charge at 40A at home so never a problem.
5/ has your battery performance/range changed over time?
ideal range on standard charge has gone down by maybe 2% in 20 months
6/ how often does the car break down or require service?
on occasion there will be small issues but never a problem with battery
7/ how much money do you spend a year on maintenance and servicing of the car
It's all been under warranty so nothing so far
8/ how much does charging the car add to your electricity bill?
so little I don't even notice. Maybe $30 a month
9/ what are common problems that you have experienced with the roadster
none
10/ if you had to do it all over again, would you still get the Roadster? Definitely! Amazing car and a game changer that helped Tesla along (among other things) to reach the Model S stage of their evolution.
As to the original post:
1/ Do you use your car as a daily driver?
Yes
2/ What is your driving style: aggressive, or as an everyday commuter car, etc
average so mostly commuter car
3/ What is the range you usually get from a full battery charge?
181 on a standard charge
4/ how long does it take to charge your battery?
depends on how much I drive but I can charge at 40A at home so never a problem.
5/ has your battery performance/range changed over time?
ideal range on standard charge has gone down by maybe 2% in 20 months
6/ how often does the car break down or require service?
on occasion there will be small issues but never a problem with battery
7/ how much money do you spend a year on maintenance and servicing of the car
It's all been under warranty so nothing so far
8/ how much does charging the car add to your electricity bill?
so little I don't even notice. Maybe $30 a month
9/ what are common problems that you have experienced with the roadster
none
10/ if you had to do it all over again, would you still get the Roadster? Definitely! Amazing car and a game changer that helped Tesla along (among other things) to reach the Model S stage of their evolution.
Caunyd,
For balance, try this thread:
What's gone wrong with your Roadster?
Some people lots of problems, other few.
I've probably had more than than the average, but the feeling I get is that all (99%?) of the reported issues seem to have been dealt with promptly and under warranty by Tesla.
My concerns are (a) what happens when the warranty runs out, and (b) can Tesla scale the amazing service their rangers give to the numbers of the Model S, X and long-term gen III?
tomsax
Member
1/ Do you use your car as a daily driver?
Yes, but I work from home. We took delivery on June 5, 2009 and have 29,628 miles on the odometer. Now that we have a Leaf, the Roadster gets less use in the winter.
2/ What is your driving style: aggressive, or as an everyday commuter car, etc
It's a mix. Sometimes I'm 80 mph crossing the I-90 bridge, sometimes I'm in the right lane doing 60 mph. Most of the time I spend driving the Roadster, I'm having way too much fun.
3/ What is the range you usually get from a full battery charge?
235 ideal miles in range mode, 183 in standard. We got a new battery pack in November, 2010, about 15,000 miles on it now.
4/ how long does it take to charge your battery?
Typically an hour or two at 240V/32A, but as others have noted it takes 30 seconds to plug in and the rest happens while I'm sleeping. It beats the hell out of going to gas stations.
5/ has your battery performance/range changed over time?
See Tesla Roadster Battery Capacity Over Time and Miles - Tom Saxton's Blog
6/ how often does the car break down or require service?
It has never broken down and required service. The subwoofer amp had a transistor burn up, which was a little scary until they figured it out, but the car was working just fine. At the one-year service, three battery sheets "failed the bleed test" whatever that means. I was cleared to drive it 180 miles to Portland and take it drag racing, where I set a new personal best 1/4-mile time, 12.978 seconds ET at 103 mph. To make a long story short, Tesla replaced the entire battery pack at my convenience in November.
7/ how much money do you spend a year on maintainance and servicing of the car
$600/year, plus about another $600 replacing rear tires every 12,000 miles. My previous car was a 1995 Acura NSX-T, which also chewed through rear tires at about that rate. There are some owners experimenting with a different set of tires that may allow us to use cheaper tires that last have a 40,000-mile warranty and don't degrade performance.
8/ how much does charging the car add to your electricity bill?
It's completely undetectable, a very small expense compared to burning gas. We have driven the Roadster 28,257 miles since having our HPC installed with a dedicated meter. Since having our HPC installed with a dedicated meter, we've drive 28,257 miles on 7,106.2 kWh. At our electric rate, that's about
$782. To drive the NSX that same distance would require 1411 gallons of gas (21 mpg), which would cost $5,643 at $4/gallon.
9/ what are common problems that you have experienced with the roadster
The center console backlight didn't work. It took two replacements to get that fixed. The fogging headlight problem has improved, but still happens occasionally. There have been a few other minor issues over the past three years, but they've been minor enough I can't even think of any more than I've already mentioned.
10/ if you had to do it all over again, would you still get the Roadster?
Purchasing the Roadster was a political statement for us. We wanted to support the only company even talking about making an electric car in 2006. Now I'm not sure I'd spend so much money on an exotic sports car. However, I can't imagine ever parting with it. The Roadster offers by far the best driving experience available at any price.
Six weeks after getting the Roadster in 2009, I sold the NSX-T, which I thought I would keep forever. It had 24,000 miles on the odometer. In less than three years, I put more miles on the Roadster than I did in 14 years of driving the NSX because it's so much more fun to drive the Roadster.
If I had to start with an empty garage, my first purchase would be a Nissan Leaf. Then I'd wait as long as possible to decide what the second EV would be.
Yes, but I work from home. We took delivery on June 5, 2009 and have 29,628 miles on the odometer. Now that we have a Leaf, the Roadster gets less use in the winter.
2/ What is your driving style: aggressive, or as an everyday commuter car, etc
It's a mix. Sometimes I'm 80 mph crossing the I-90 bridge, sometimes I'm in the right lane doing 60 mph. Most of the time I spend driving the Roadster, I'm having way too much fun.
3/ What is the range you usually get from a full battery charge?
235 ideal miles in range mode, 183 in standard. We got a new battery pack in November, 2010, about 15,000 miles on it now.
4/ how long does it take to charge your battery?
Typically an hour or two at 240V/32A, but as others have noted it takes 30 seconds to plug in and the rest happens while I'm sleeping. It beats the hell out of going to gas stations.
5/ has your battery performance/range changed over time?
See Tesla Roadster Battery Capacity Over Time and Miles - Tom Saxton's Blog
6/ how often does the car break down or require service?
It has never broken down and required service. The subwoofer amp had a transistor burn up, which was a little scary until they figured it out, but the car was working just fine. At the one-year service, three battery sheets "failed the bleed test" whatever that means. I was cleared to drive it 180 miles to Portland and take it drag racing, where I set a new personal best 1/4-mile time, 12.978 seconds ET at 103 mph. To make a long story short, Tesla replaced the entire battery pack at my convenience in November.
7/ how much money do you spend a year on maintainance and servicing of the car
$600/year, plus about another $600 replacing rear tires every 12,000 miles. My previous car was a 1995 Acura NSX-T, which also chewed through rear tires at about that rate. There are some owners experimenting with a different set of tires that may allow us to use cheaper tires that last have a 40,000-mile warranty and don't degrade performance.
8/ how much does charging the car add to your electricity bill?
It's completely undetectable, a very small expense compared to burning gas. We have driven the Roadster 28,257 miles since having our HPC installed with a dedicated meter. Since having our HPC installed with a dedicated meter, we've drive 28,257 miles on 7,106.2 kWh. At our electric rate, that's about
$782. To drive the NSX that same distance would require 1411 gallons of gas (21 mpg), which would cost $5,643 at $4/gallon.
9/ what are common problems that you have experienced with the roadster
The center console backlight didn't work. It took two replacements to get that fixed. The fogging headlight problem has improved, but still happens occasionally. There have been a few other minor issues over the past three years, but they've been minor enough I can't even think of any more than I've already mentioned.
10/ if you had to do it all over again, would you still get the Roadster?
Purchasing the Roadster was a political statement for us. We wanted to support the only company even talking about making an electric car in 2006. Now I'm not sure I'd spend so much money on an exotic sports car. However, I can't imagine ever parting with it. The Roadster offers by far the best driving experience available at any price.
Six weeks after getting the Roadster in 2009, I sold the NSX-T, which I thought I would keep forever. It had 24,000 miles on the odometer. In less than three years, I put more miles on the Roadster than I did in 14 years of driving the NSX because it's so much more fun to drive the Roadster.
If I had to start with an empty garage, my first purchase would be a Nissan Leaf. Then I'd wait as long as possible to decide what the second EV would be.
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