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Renault Fluence Z.E:
- Thread starter Mitrovic
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- Electric Vehicles
Each kWh of energy produced by a coal power plant emits about 2.17 lbs (0.984 kg) of CO2.
Each gallon of gas burnt creates about 19.4 lbs (8.800 kg) of CO2. A gallon of gas produces about 5.4 kWh of useful work, or 3.59 lbs (1.628 kg) of CO2 per kWh produced.
Similar gas and electric cars use the same amount of power to move at any given speed so replacing gas cars with electric cars would reduce the amount of CO2 pumped into the atmosphere. Exactly how much depends on the mix of coal to other energy sources. But even with 100% coal it's still an improvement.
More importantly, the amount emitted from power plants is stable and controllable without using rare earth elements as catalytic converters do. Yes, they only use a few grams, but a few times millions becomes a big number.
Finally, electric cars can be cleaned up by replacing coal power plants with clean nuclear and other power sources. It only takes political will (and money). A gas car is as clean as it will ever be when new, and deteriorates over time.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
That's weird. I've seen other reviews that say ~80 km (50 miles) of range real world range on Fluence ZE vs ~100km (60 miles) on the Leaf under the same circumstances:
http://driving-dutchman.com/renault-fluence-ze-review/
JOEV1
*****joe
Thanks for the lecture. We've had that discussion many a time here before...
Taking your 984g/kWh, multiplying in transmission losses of 10% and charging losses (not seen these for the Fluence so I'll use an optimistic 10%), we get emissions for energy at the battery of 1191g/kWh. The Fluence has an NEDC tested range of 185km from 22kWh, or 119Wh/km.
So the emissions in this case are 142g/km.
This compares with (for example) 89g/km for a regular Prius under the same conditions. Even allowing for 17% refinery loses, there are many similar size cars that come in under 142g/km.
Low emission cars Next Green Car
These results are not achieved on the same day. Look the date of Fluence review. Winter is not good for EV.
Look this other comparative, at same date, same temperature. Nissan 94 km, Fluence 119 km:
Nissan Leaf contre Renault Fluence Z.E. Expression - Match d'avenir? - Essais - L'Automobile Magazine
And Zoe is better than Fluence. The choice in Europe is clear.
These results are not achieved on the same day. Look the date of Fluence review. Winter is not good for EV.
Look this other comparative, at same date, same temperature. Nissan 94 km, Fluence 119 km:
Nissan Leaf contre Renault Fluence Z.E. Expression - Match d'avenir? - Essais - L'Automobile Magazine
And Zoe is better than Fluence. The choice in Europe is clear.
According to the article they put the improvement in autonomy of the Fluence vs LEAF down to two things:
1. Fluence uses 22 out of 24 kWh of battery ve LEAF using 20 kWh of of 24 kWh
2. Fluence having an induction motor vs LEAF having a permanent magnet motor
"Because the air resistance and engines that run faster than 130 km / h (the ZE is designed for 135 km / h max and the Leaf to 145 km / h) in a zone scheme where their yields are deteriorating, drive up consumption sharply on motorways.
This limits their autonomy frankly: 67 km to the Leaf, and 76 km for the Fluence ZE, which operates 22 of 24 kWh total capacity of the battery, against only 20 kWh used in the Nissan. And distrust with which the Leaf alert late on the limited autonomy. The first beep occurs when there are only 6 km! (20 km for the Fluence). On the road, according to our measurement protocol ISO 9001, the range of the Japanese is 85 km, while that of the French climbs to 108 km. Finally, downtown, the Nissan will travel 94 km before requesting a refill, while Renault will grow up to 119 km."
This limits their autonomy frankly: 67 km to the Leaf, and 76 km for the Fluence ZE, which operates 22 of 24 kWh total capacity of the battery, against only 20 kWh used in the Nissan. And distrust with which the Leaf alert late on the limited autonomy. The first beep occurs when there are only 6 km! (20 km for the Fluence). On the road, according to our measurement protocol ISO 9001, the range of the Japanese is 85 km, while that of the French climbs to 108 km. Finally, downtown, the Nissan will travel 94 km before requesting a refill, while Renault will grow up to 119 km."
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
So they extrapolated (using a "usable" capacity that may not be accurate) and didn't actually drive till turtle mode (which the other review did). Apples and oranges. And from what I can tell I think the review of the Fluence ZE was recent (not sure about the Leaf).
Anyways, their results is more like extrapolating from the NEDC numbers: 175km for the Leaf vs 185km for the Fluence ZE.
Last edited:
Just for the record...
I`ve been driving on mild conditions and using my heating system about 15% of the time and I never go below 145Km /per charge. I changed a bit my driving habits, but I´m not a nuisance on the road. My record is 160km on a load (real) and arrived home with some 15km to spare. So, maybe, just maybe the 185 km promised are possible, although I agree that you have to be extra carefull to achieve those values. Up to now in 60 happy days of driving I`ve made 6000km!
I`ve been driving on mild conditions and using my heating system about 15% of the time and I never go below 145Km /per charge. I changed a bit my driving habits, but I´m not a nuisance on the road. My record is 160km on a load (real) and arrived home with some 15km to spare. So, maybe, just maybe the 185 km promised are possible, although I agree that you have to be extra carefull to achieve those values. Up to now in 60 happy days of driving I`ve made 6000km!
Except that pumping oil, transporting it and refining it leads to a lot of CO2 emissions too. On average about the same amount as released when burned. So that 89g/km is actually 178g/km well-to-wheels.
Mining coal or pumping NG for powerplant-use also leads to emissions, but nothing like producing gasoline since refining is by far the worst offender.
The EV still wins.
Have you got any data to back that up? Several recent threads have shown it's nothing like double. A US DOE study put refinery losses at 17%.
Range:
Fluence, 135 km
Leaf ,126 km
C30, 106 km
Nissan Leaf, Renault Fluence, Volvo C30 Electric: E-Autos im Test - AUTO MOTOR UND SPORT
Fluence, 135 km
Leaf ,126 km
C30, 106 km
Nissan Leaf, Renault Fluence, Volvo C30 Electric: E-Autos im Test - AUTO MOTOR UND SPORT
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stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Here it seems they are using TUV to do a driving cycle test. Interesting that the Leaf had the most range in the cold. Also it was the Leaf that was most efficient.
It seems at least in cycle tests, the Fluence has about 10 km more range than the Leaf (less than 10% difference, just like the supposed 10% difference in the usable capacity).
Then you said 89 vs 120:
http://www.oeamtc.at/at/?id=2500,1381259,,,Y2Q9MQ==
Although from what I can in the review the 89km figure was when turtle mode popped up (with 9km left) and 120km was when the Renault was completely exhausted, although that still puts the difference at 20km (about 20%).
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