^ this has been discussed several times over the past month. The threshold where the Prius wins on efficiency is over 90 miles.
I'm getting tired of the Volt getting compared to a Prius
I'm getting tired of the Volt getting compared to a Prius
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Pure BEV Dogma
- Thread starter bonnie
- Start date
Sadly, it's the way of marketing to try to have it both ways. I seem to recall a certain vehicle advertised as having a 300 mile range with a $50K base price. Before that another vehicle was advertised as being able to fully charge in about 4 hours, from any outlet. Pretty confusing for those that don't already know better. But we do know better, right??
Which only confirms the need for more specific names other than PEV or ICE or hybrid. If the names were right, then it's more likely people would group similar cars for comparison.
I'm FINE with whatever people choose. What is right for me isn't right for everyone. It's the name!
Many years ago I was a waitress at a really nice restaurant. A drunk woman was yelling at me that it was the worst steak she'd ever had ... and she'd ordered fish. She was eating fish and didn't realize it wasn't a steak. Only thought it was a really BAD steak. An EV that carries gas onboard to extend range as necessary should somehow be distinguished separately from an EV that does not. It makes comparisons easier with all the different vehicles hitting the market today.
Names matter.
While I can fully appreciate your 'snit', I think you're being a bit short sighted. People need a bridge to EVs, pure and simple. EVs failed (for a number of reasons) years ago. Hybrids met incredible resistance, and judging by the amount of hate, "gay" comments, etc. about the prius and other hybrids there's still a lot of that sentiment. I would never, 8 years ago, have considered buying an EV. Yet here I am, one of the country's biggest Prius advocates and I'm more than eager to 'jump ship' and have had my deposit for my Model S down since the day they started accepting deposits.
If the price of more converts to "the cause" is swallowing a few poorly informed pundits calling the Volt an EV, then so be it...people will learn the difference and move on eventually. Smile, nod, and politely educate. You catch more bees with a teaspoon of honey than a gallon of vinegar.
Sorry. Wasn't criticizing your choice. Didn't know at what point the Prius overtook the Volt in terms of efficiency. I think something like the Volt makes a lot of sense for some people and certainly moves things in the right direction.
I personally don't like what I call hybrids, Prius and the like where you have a real gasoline drive train, and a small - medium electric drive. I can see the appeal but to me it is adding a lot of complexity and weight for minimal gain. But fine.
I really like the Volt / Karma EV with onboard generator. They really are EVs despite anything you can say. If you disable the ICE they will preform EXACTLY the same way as they would without it. A Prius can't do that. I call them EVs with an onboard generator (or something like that). Because that is what they are. They have serious space limitations, but I think the concept will become prevalent.
Maybe we can use GEV (Generator Electric Vehicle) ER is too generic.
I really like the Volt / Karma EV with onboard generator. They really are EVs despite anything you can say. If you disable the ICE they will preform EXACTLY the same way as they would without it. A Prius can't do that. I call them EVs with an onboard generator (or something like that). Because that is what they are. They have serious space limitations, but I think the concept will become prevalent.
Maybe we can use GEV (Generator Electric Vehicle) ER is too generic.
Again, I'm NOT criticizing the choice. I never once criticized the choice. Only the name. I ONLY asked for NAME clarification. And I see below the suggestion of ER-EV. (Also note my post where I said I supported extended range vehicles.)
But thanks for the 'catch more bees' advice.
(fyi, I own a Prius.)
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Be careful including the Karma there. While it is a plug-in serial hybrid, it takes a performance hit without its ICE.
I'm in general agreement, except that the Karma is a fail. It's so heavy, slow, and inefficient it's almost greenwashing. The solar cells on the roof cement that in my mind; they contribute nothing to the car being green, except in the minds of people you are trying to impress.
If you offered me a free Volt or a free Karma I'd take the Volt. Better performance, more interior space, more storage space... better in all ways except style. (And now after having seen several Karmas in person, I have to say I'm less impressed by the style than I was having only seen photos.) Heck, I'd take a Via plug-in serial hybrid (unfortunately marketed as "EV-ER") truck over the Karma.
(Actually, it might be better to take the free Karma, sell it, and buy two Volts.)
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
No they really aern't, despite anything you can say. Part of being an "EV" is simplicity, which includes lack of oil changes, emissions testing, exhaust part replacement, etc. A hybrid or plug in hybrid, however it is constructed, is at least twice as complex as an EV. They are simply not EV's, they are hybrids. A hybrid is a combination of two different things. An EV is not a hybrid, and a hybrid is simply not an EV. If you buy a hybrid of any sort, and never ever use the ICE, you should not have bought a hybrid. There is this rather bizarre phenomenon with Volt owners where they are desperately trying to pretend they have an EV. If I'm ever in the position to own a hybrid for some reason, a Volt, Karma, plug in Prius, whatever, I'll never try to pretend it's an EV. It might be a fine vehicle and an appropriate choice, but it's never an EV.
Another name we don't need. PHEV works, PHEV40 for the Volt if you want to be range specific. Simple, descriptive, accurate, and avoids all confusion with actual EVs. Enough confusion and damage has been done by calling the Volt an EV.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I think you are confusing two very different positions:
1) People who think everyone should drive a "pure EV"
2) People who think it is wrong to call the Volt/Karma (any of these EVER/REEV/PHEV cars) an "electric car" or "EV"
I think all the people here talking about the terminology falls under the latter, not necessarily former.
I suppose a third position is opposition to the EVER/REEV term vs the PHEV term, but the current thread is more about discussing companies that call either type an "electric car" or "electric".
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stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
In both cases, none of that resulted in anyone being able to use the confusion to trash EVs. What's more maddening is when GM also trashes EVs while trying to tie themselves to it.
ChadS
Last tank of gas: March 2009
I agree with what you are saying...but I see problems with calling the Volt a hybrid in common use (although I agree that it obviously is one technically). Calling it a hybrid avoids confusion with BEVs, but causes confusion with things like the Prius. The Volt is very different from the Prius (and even the Plug-In Prius), in ways that are very important to owners--yet hard to understand until you drive it (which most people won't bother doing if they think it's "just a hybrid like the Prius").
So I don't blame GM or owners for avoiding the PHEV term, even though it obviously is a PHEV and I agree that the EV term is confusing. "Hybrid" is just too broad; there is going to be a wide variety of very different cars under that umbrella. I wish there was another clear term we could use, but I can't think of anything easy and obvious.
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This is exactly the problem. PHEV40 for the Volt and PHEV13 for the Plug-in-Prius implies they are just different range versions of the same thing. They are not. To the driver, Volt operates like an EV with a backup generator. Plug-in-Prius drives like an anemic hybrid and needs gas to accelerate at any sort of reasonable pace and drive at 70mph on the motorway.
If you drive them both, you will appreciate this.
There does indeed seem to be opposition to the ER-EV term. Everyone wants to lump them all into PHEV. I fully understand why the ER-EV makers need to differentiate them.
Exactly.
ER-EV.
I personally will not call any car with a gas tank an EV. My choice. I will always refer to it as a hybrid, or if pressured a hybrid EV.
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