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Project Better Place
- Thread starter tonybelding
- Start date
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- Electric Vehicles
brianoflondon
Member
Plus 2-3 full-time employees on three shifts, puts the annual operating cost at somewhere around $350k for labor costs, plus rent, taxes, and utilities. Anyway, an interesting model -- time will tell whether and where the swap/lease model is better than the quick-charge/own model.
brianoflondon
Member
Design is for unattended, for now and possibly for ever in Israel they're attended. Using them really is completely automatic. I can't image terrorist blowing them up, not enough people there for them to care.
And they can be sped up dramatically. I worked that out by seeing inside but Shai Agassi confirmed it direct to me last week. 2 mins is easy for the equipment.
brianoflondon
Member
Hawaii is too small, a Leaf can drive round without trouble. Switching is not much help. Better Place is operating a charging network there.
brianoflondon
Member
No. It's been OK for some time. I have had precisely zero snagging issues with the car. Not one. It's not built from the very best materials for sure but it's solid and well screwed together. I had the dash taken apart to fit a Parrot bluetooth system and it's all snapped back together without a sign.
Electrification helps because of the elimination of vibration. I think the Germans should be very scared of my car: it's also the reason why upstart Tesla can compete with Merc and BMW. Once you take away that vibrating mess up front, engineering is much easier. My Renault is nicer to be in than many a Lexus, BMW or Merc costing double.
Cool. The only experience I've had with Renault is in Canada several years ago when everyone that bought one got rid of it within a couple of years because the cars just seemed to fall apart.
brianoflondon
Member
Hawaii's islands are so small they don't need switch stations. A Leaf has pretty much enough range to make it all the way around and back to where you started.
Hawaii is also suitable because they pay more for gasoline.
The most important variable in whether BP is economic or not is the difference between the cost of electricity per km and the cost of gas. In Israel we pay a little over twice what you pay in the US. For this reason alone BP works here (and in most of the EU) and is much harder to make work in the US. Enjoy your sub $4 gas while it lasts.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
But why would you need the BP model of more expensive ownership in Hawaii when you can just buy an EV and charge it at home cheaply? The price of gas doesn't matter when you are comparing a BP EV to a non BP EV.
brianoflondon
Member
BP in Hawaii will obviously not be charging as they are in Israel. They're giving free public charging till the end of the year I believe. After that I'm not sure what their business model is but I would assume it will include installing and maintaing home charging stations for people and a small membership fee for all the public points.
Price of gas is the single biggest factor in deciding at which points EVs become popular. Hawaii has pretty solid uptake of EVs accordingly.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
You're still ignoring the point, price of gas has no bearing when comparing a BP EV to a non BP EV. The non BP EV will always be cheaper, and BP without a swap station has zero added value. Basically it seems BP can only be successful if they have a monopoly on EV's, which is not going to be the case in most places. BP strong armed their way into Israel but will probably be irrelevant in most other locations, especially as battery technology continues to improve, eliminating the small advantage that swapping might provide.
brianoflondon
Member
BP are doing something special in terms of customer service. You have no idea because you've convinced yourself they will fail. EVs are not supported today by gas stations at ever corner. EVs now need, and for some foreseeable future will need, special help. It's possible that, absent switch stations, BP have a role to play. We'll see. I agree the value model is much slimmer but so are the operating costs.
Just consider this possibility: when you sign up with BP in Israel you agree that they control the current flow to your car. Just plugging in doesn't guarantee that charging will start. In practice today in Israel I don't see a lot of evidence that they're doing this but the equipment and the legal permission are there. I have a "Priority" button to override this behaviour.
In other parts of the world like the US and the UK where there are cheap night time tariffs, EV owners have to research these tariffs, apply for them and then remember to set whatever timing device their car comes with in order to access cheaper power. If they make one mistake either their car costs more to charge than they thought or they wake up to a flat battery (I've done this once when my child disconnected me on the way out of the garage, fortunately I just had to drive 8km to switch it!)
They can offer to charge your Leaf to 80% every time. No matter whether you've plugged in at home or at a public charge spot. Nikki at GCR was wishing for this with the Polar network where her partner is charging their Leaf everyday in Bristol. Easy for BP to implement.
I agree, today's crop of early adopting EV owners probably manage this OK. My wife can't remember to plug her phone in! She would never do this on her own. BP are in a position to show up, offer you a home charge spot with power at a LOWER rate than your utility and still make money.
Perhaps they'll let you on-peak charge 5 times a month on demand, perhaps they'll just surcharge you if you need a 5pm peak top up. Who knows.
And once the number of BP cars on their system becomes significant, they are then in a position to bulk buy electricity from the provider putting them in a strong position, again to offer if not lower then just the same price with added service benefits and they keep the arbitrage.
And then we get to the future Car to Grid applications: one car back to the grid is hardly interesting for a utility. A whole network of thousands and suddenly BP have a negotiating position.
The point is you're completely ignoring these opportunities in your rush to say BP add nothing.
With this "battery rental" idea people somehow silently assume they wont have to pay for the battery, that "some other subject" will cover all the costs for batteries, battery swap stations buildup and maintenance and personnel pays.
a) If you buy the battery you buy the battery and electricity.
b) If you are renting the battery you buy the battery and electricity AND battery swap stations and wages for people working there.
In this universe option b) cannot ever be cheaper than option a).
If you don't want to pay full upright price for the battery, take a loan. It will still be cheaper than paying for battery swapping in through the vehicle lifetime.
Don't silently assume anyone will give you gifts and expect nothing in return.
a) If you buy the battery you buy the battery and electricity.
b) If you are renting the battery you buy the battery and electricity AND battery swap stations and wages for people working there.
In this universe option b) cannot ever be cheaper than option a).
If you don't want to pay full upright price for the battery, take a loan. It will still be cheaper than paying for battery swapping in through the vehicle lifetime.
Don't silently assume anyone will give you gifts and expect nothing in return.
Take her driving license away and make something good for traffic safety.
On the other hand, plugging in the car is still a 20th century solution, wireless charging at home will be the norm.
brianoflondon
Member
I know how much I value what I'm getting from BP over and above electricity and I have a better idea at the real cost than almost anyone else outside their company.
I feel it represents extraordinary value even though total ownership including battery depreciation is ONLY 20% cheaper than petrol at this point. It is the difference, to me, between being able to have an EV and not. I would not own a self charged EV with a battery at this stage in their development.
Because you'd need only a few swap stations and you'd have the entire island covered. Would be even faster than supercharging and could drive around with a smaller and cheaper battery pack. I'm not saying it is a good model for Hawaii but cheaper to implement there than Texas.
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