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Project Better Place

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#481
Charging at a local shopping mall (didn't need to but I'm educating other Israelis that there is a purpose to these spots!
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Charging in Jerusalem: this actually matters. If these spots are open and not ICED I can get there and back without a battery switch. However I won't ever get to this place without enough battery to at least get to a switch station on the way home from Jerusalem. Fortunately it's a big hill down from Jerusalem which helps!
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Charging at a public spot at a hotel in northern Israel (borrowed car, mine is silver)
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#485
brianoflondon said:
The purchase price of my car, home charge spot and 4 years of driving up to 80,000 km is the same as the list price of a Toyota Prius with no fuel. In my head I have 4 years free driving in a car that is much nicer than a Prius. I can switch and charge in public stations as much as I want. I'm covered for breakdown and have a service similar to OnStar covering me too.
Click to expand...

Well, my Leaf was cheaper than a Prius, and the difference easily pays for home electricity to charge it for 8-10 years. And I do own the battery. Most of the QC stations here are free to use too, but after my Model S arrives the Leaf will probably never need a fast charge again.
 
#486
brianoflondon said:
A short answer is there are no other electric cars in Israel but if I was only comparing what I pay in subscription and leasing costs (for the battery, I do own my car just without a battery) against just electricity, then the Better Place service costs 12c per mile over the price of the electricity. I'm happy with that.
Click to expand...
Simple fact is comparing similar EV's, one without a swappable pack and not tied into the BP payment system, the BP car has to cost more to purchase and operate. Whatever BP's expenses and profits are they must be paid for by the consumer. BP can only make owning an EV more expensive. If they provide something worthwhile for that additional expense is up to the individual to decide.
 
#487
JRP3 said:
Simple fact is comparing similar EV's, one without a swappable pack and not tied into the BP payment system, the BP car has to cost more to purchase and operate. Whatever BP's expenses and profits are they must be paid for by the consumer. BP can only make owning an EV more expensive. If they provide something worthwhile for that additional expense is up to the individual to decide.
Click to expand...

It's tricky to compare here. Cars in Israel cost at least 50% more than the UK and 100% more than the US some of which is crazy import duties.

While BP exists and while cars are imported and sold by a cartel of six family firms, none of those dinosaur firms have the balls to compete with a fixed battery car and the education of their consumers they'd need to do. I've heard speak of a Volt or Ampera coming but I doubt it.

I did a complex bit of maths versus the price in the UK (to try and factor out the lease value of the battery). It showed me that I wasn't paying more than UK Renault customers who get almost nothing in the way of help for their battery lease fee.

I actually don't care any more. I know enough now to know that owning an EV without the backup of a provider like Better Place to actually make the process of using the car effortless, would be silly for me. I guess I've decided the additional expense is well worth it.

As long as the price per km is somewhere below petrol (though the car is so nice to drive I'm not even sure that saving money is essential) I'd buy it again in a heartbeat. I don't need it to be 1/8th the price of petrol driving: I'm happy to consider the battery as fuel, and buy that in a lease.

It turns out this isn't the only car I have access to: my wife has a big Jeep (about to be an even bigger diesel Hyundai) but I just don't want to use that unless I have to, and soon there is no journey for which I'll have to unless I want to carry 4 adults and 2 kids.
 
#490
Just some perspective: the 85kWh Model S can drive from Nahariya (extreme north of Israel) to Be'er Sheba (last stop before the desert) and back without recharging. Or Nahriya all the way to Eilat on the Red Sea. Of course, you're paying for the extra battery capacity, but personally I'd prefer that to being dependent on the BP network.
 
#491
Robert.Boston said:
Just some perspective: the 85kWh Model S can drive from Nahariya (extreme north of Israel) to Be'er Sheba (last stop before the desert) and back without recharging. Or Nahriya all the way to Eilat on the Red Sea. Of course, you're paying for the extra battery capacity, but personally I'd prefer that to being dependent on the BP network.
Click to expand...

And at $85,000 + 8% +$10,000 to get it here (conservative estimate) we're looking at ₪405,000+ . So I could buy 2 Better Place cars (including 4 years payment free motoring) with enough left over to live on for a year. Or perhaps a Santa Fe Diesel 2.2l + a Better Place car for 4 years and enough left over to fuel & run the Santa Fe for 60,000 km.

The Tesla S 85kWh is an awesome bit of energy storage but I also have no need for an iPhone with 2 weeks operating time: changeable batteries would be nice though.

And consider: if you could swap the batteries on the 40kWh model you could do the same journey with a car costing almost half. And if they made it with a 30kWh battery it would cost less than half and would be suitable for both 99% of trips and the other 1% of trips.

I predict Tesla will wake up or remain niche. At the high end you can do $100k cars, at the volume end you can't.
 
#492
Better Place seems to work great for Isreal but as was said, not for the US without a massive, very expensive investment. If Better Place can convince all manufacturers to go to Tesla's flat battery pack or if all of the other manufacturers agree on a common pack and the swap station only has two different packs to deal with and keep in inventory then it might work but I can't see BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Ford, Chrysler....etc all agreeing on anything.

If I had a 120 mile pack, I would need at least 4 stations just in Texas to get around the major cities. What about places like Montana that are less densely populated? With the 85 kWh pack, I can make it to all 4 major cities in Texas on one charge and recharge while I'm there. Yes that is not as ideal as battery swap but much less expensive and no need for inventory. I also own my battery pack so don't want to trade it for someone else's pack unless my pack is kept there for me to pick up. You are correct the upfront cost to the consumer is likely less but EVs won't catch on here with such limited range unless Better Place deploys their infrastructure on a massive, nationwide scale.
 
#493
dsm363 said:
If I had a 120 mile pack, I would need at least 4 stations just in Texas to get around the major cities.
Click to expand...

I'm not an ideological EV driver so I believe in different transport solutions for different problems. I agree that the US is not an attractive place for Better Place to start. I also think that long distance cruising is an edge use of EVs. The simple commuter and mum at home with 20 mile radius use is the place where EVs can reduce the most number of INEFFICIENTLY driven miles. For belting out 200 mile trips the ICE is not that bad and still way better than any EV on cost of ownership when the battery is properly accounted for.

Cost is all about the trade off between network investment or high price cars. I want both to be honest!

Having said that, as you point out, 4 well placed switch stations would cover most of the major corridors in Texas! Make it 40 and you've got quite a network covering many more people than the population of little Israel. The costs are not as crazy as they may seem but entrenched attitudes are. And if you built 500 switch stations in the major metropolitan areas of the US, the costs would drop dramatically from building 40 in Israel and a few in Denmark. It could be done.

I know you can drive to Montana today, and this time last year I drove from Atlanta to Brooklyn in two days stoping for gas only and one overnight in Richmond. We had a beautiful Nissan V6 Altima (?) from Hertz and it was very good to drive: I think we're 15 years minimum before that trip would make sense in an EV. We only drove because the prospect of TSA and flying is so unpalatable these days :)
 
#494
brianoflondon said:
I know you can drive to Montana today, and this time last year I drove from Atlanta to Brooklyn in two days stoping for gas only and one overnight in Richmond. We had a beautiful Nissan V6 Altima (?) from Hertz and it was very good to drive: I think we're 15 years minimum before that trip would make sense in an EV...
Click to expand...
I guess it depends on what you mean by "make sense," but I think you're being too pessimistic. With a Model S and properly placed superchargers, you could do it within a couple years. (Though, I'd expect superchargers to by placed along I-95 before I-85.)
 
#497
doug said:
Ahh... so by make sense you meant rental.
Click to expand...

In CA I've often taken a Mustang from Hertz as that's fun: but it's still a pretty cheap Mustang and even that costs a bit extra.

Just had a look, it was a Nissan Maxima 3.5l V6. I guess it's a $35k car retail in the US (oh for your car prices in Israel, that would cost exactly double that here but nobody will bring it because it's engine would be crucified by our green slanted import duties).

If we take John Voelker's estimate of battery improvement at 6 to 8% per year (be that price/performance) we have to get from $85k to $35k (at today's prices) and lets be honest, there are plenty of $15k cars that could make that journey in slightly less comfort.

That's the gap. My 22kWh battery car is down below the Maxima in price (comparatively in Israel) the 85kWh Tesla is 2.5x. Mass adoption happens at about 30kWh for $20k I believe: it's just massively accelerated if there is a network to make the cars do more than commute and errands.
 
#498
Brian, what when the Renault Zoe comes out. It is seriously cheaper, has better recharging capabilities, more cargo space and is a real EV and not a converted ICE car. It will also be more economical as it uses less kWh/100mi.
 
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