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Project Better Place
- Thread starter tonybelding
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- Electric Vehicles
brianoflondon
Member
The Supercharger: stopping for a battery switch usually costs max 15 minutes total factoring in breaking the journey and some inevitable detour. Some stations are better positioned than others and the worst I've used is the single one on the way to/from Jerusalem that is a five minute drive each way to reach so 15 is a worst case.
If I was unlucky enough to arrive moments after another owner, that would go up to 20 minutes. In the current early phase I phone ahead by 15 minutes which makes sure the station staff don't run any test cars through (they do this every 2 hours just to make sure everything is working). Other customers are pretty rare these days: we'll see if queuing becomes an issue.
A supercharger would be 45 minutes at best. How many cars can a charger service: one, two? Are the spots guarded? Can they be ICED? Can you call ahead for status or see operating status in car? Are they being built now or just a paper dream?
Twice in one trip and that would have eaten into the time I'd have been able to spend at the destination. It's as simple as that. I wouldn't drive up to Tefen to spend 1.5 hrs there. 3 hrs is worth it. It's OK if it's a weekend break with a loved one, but not a face to face business meeting.
I'm really not here to antagonise, more to understand why otherwise sane pro-EV people jump to criticise Better Place's model and answers to problems that all EV drivers are asked about everyday by gasoline car drivers.
It's past the stage where you can say Shai is a dreamer. I met him last night, he's short but real and having started and owned my own small businesses in Israel, the US and the UK I have amazing respect for his achievements to date. This is not Solyndra or some other government boondoggle. The Israeli govt gives it much less help than you imagine. The Israeli Electricity Company is probably their greatest impediment and yet they've achieved something amazing.
I'm not paid to write this stuff. I probably should be but getting thanked last night was nice.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Except you compared it to a Model S, which would have needed only one charge.
Quite simply because the BP model makes EV's more expensive, it has to, and the "problem" it "solves" becomes less critical as batteries keep improving. You can find my reasoning here:
EPhase: Project Better Place, Exposed.
EPhase: Better Place Fairy Tale Crumbles
EPhase: The Truth About "Better Place"
EPhase: More Problems For Better Place
Thanks for sharing your experiences with Better Place. While it is an interesting model, I don't think it would work in the US. First you'd have to get Ford, GM, Tesla, Chrysler.... all to agree on a common battery format. Then with the US being so large, the number of stations and cost of having batteries sit in reserve would likely be massive. It may make sense for Taxi fleets in New York for example but the Supercharger network, while not yet built, can likely be built for a fraction of the cost. It does only work with Tesla but other DC fast charging networks are being built too.
Thanks again Brian,
I enjoy reading your experiences here. Can you spice them up with some pictures or video? (and thanks for the ad thread commercial!)
So battery swap stations have the same "issues" that any refuel station has. Gasoline, Supercharger, High Powered charger or Hydrogen, swap station, they all must deal with:
Proper placement along routes
Working or not
Availability, -either by ICEing or being used by other vehicles
Pricing
Time to fuel (Since you are doing a full "fill up" like a gasoline car it's worth reminding that charge stops don't always need to be "top offs" and may just be enough to get to a final destination where filling can happen.)
So it sounds like all things being equal if you two cars with a PBP vehicle with a perfect trip with exactly ideally place swap stations with no congestion and had any Model S along the same route with similarly perfectly placed open Superchargers that your trip inconvenience and total travel time is pretty much equal.
I enjoy reading your experiences here. Can you spice them up with some pictures or video? (and thanks for the ad thread commercial!)
So battery swap stations have the same "issues" that any refuel station has. Gasoline, Supercharger, High Powered charger or Hydrogen, swap station, they all must deal with:
Proper placement along routes
Working or not
Availability, -either by ICEing or being used by other vehicles
Pricing
Time to fuel (Since you are doing a full "fill up" like a gasoline car it's worth reminding that charge stops don't always need to be "top offs" and may just be enough to get to a final destination where filling can happen.)
So it sounds like all things being equal if you two cars with a PBP vehicle with a perfect trip with exactly ideally place swap stations with no congestion and had any Model S along the same route with similarly perfectly placed open Superchargers that your trip inconvenience and total travel time is pretty much equal.
mgemmell
Scottish chap
I am totally with you on this brianoflondon. Battery switching resolves so many of the battery recharge and battery longevity issues that I'd like to see it more seriously considered too. Shai is doing a fantastic job pioneering this just as Elon is in challenging the best of the auto industry with a superior EV. Neither is incompatible with the other and a collaboration between the two would be the best for the whole industry.
Model S has a switch-able battery so it is not an impossible dream either, however if every car on the market is going to have a different format of battery the idea is in trouble.
For now switching and charging will co-exist. Maybe in the long term one will dominate but probably home charging will always be around, while switching will dominate for all long trips and for those without a private garage and outlet (i.e. most city dwellers on the planet!).
Surely the US is only different in scale. Proportionally there will be more cars on the road to justify the investment in more switch stations. Ok, I could be proved wrong by some complex math and statistics as to long-distance versus short distance driving in the US versus other countries, but for now I can see no justification for saying the US is fundamentally better for charging than switching IMHO.
I have a feeling that initially charging (mainly home charging) will continue to be the most common way to refuel an EV.
However, if some manufacturers decide to source pre-built batteries from the same common supplier they will gain from economies of scale in their manufacture and as a side effect compatibility in the swtiching of batteries. These pressures will create clusters of models in the market that share common battery packs and if Better Place locks into these they can offer switching to those vehicles. People with a non-standard battery will wonder why they chose such a vehicle.
Ultimately I suspect there will be 4 or 5 physical formats of battery to accomodate different vehicle sizes, all handled by the same switching station, with variants in the same package for more or less capacity and performance. In that way when you plan a longer trip you can switch in a higher capacity pack and/or a higher performance pack if you wish.
In summary, despite the fact I will soon be owning 3 essentially charge-only EVs, I totally agree that switching is the right long term solution. Fighting over charging versus switching, and Better place versus Tesla is just a waste of everyone's time and creates a false dichotomy.
Sorry but I think battery swap is doomed in most countries of the world.
Today I can drive anywhere in the UK using a ~180 mile range EV and an adhoc 'fast' charge network built by amateurs. Every day it gets easier as more charging locations come online. With a ~250 mile predictable range EV and a few more 'fast' charge locations I could easily drive anywhere in the UK (and most of Europe) without even thinking about it. A European 'fast' charge network is already being built using simple and cheap 3 Phase AC (43kW), and that will be supplemented by DC 'fast' charge (50kW+) in a few key locations. These network will meet the requirements of the vast majority of drivers leaving battery swap for a few niche applications such as delivery trucks.
We really don't need to complicate this... it's just plugs and sockets.
Today I can drive anywhere in the UK using a ~180 mile range EV and an adhoc 'fast' charge network built by amateurs. Every day it gets easier as more charging locations come online. With a ~250 mile predictable range EV and a few more 'fast' charge locations I could easily drive anywhere in the UK (and most of Europe) without even thinking about it. A European 'fast' charge network is already being built using simple and cheap 3 Phase AC (43kW), and that will be supplemented by DC 'fast' charge (50kW+) in a few key locations. These network will meet the requirements of the vast majority of drivers leaving battery swap for a few niche applications such as delivery trucks.
We really don't need to complicate this... it's just plugs and sockets.
brianoflondon
Member
Lots of pics on my blog but I'll try to include some over here. Often I'm on an iPad which makes things a bit tricky.
You can't ICE a switch station. They look and work like an automatic car wash and the barriers open when an RFID tag and a wifi communication with the car start up (wifi syncs the in car display which shows what's going on)
Next week I'll be showing the route planning functions, this will surprise people and I attribute half the value of my subscription to this software. It's beyond excellent.
Don't forget that the base S has double my battery and costs double the price (allowing for the huge cost differences between Israel and the US I'd say a Tesla S basic would be $65,000 to put on the road here.)
brianoflondon
Member
It's true Kevin, but you have a vast battery in a featherweight two seater costing more than twice my car. Leafs are hard to take long distance.
It is possible that an EV could be the best selling car in Israel late next year. That wouldn't happen with plugs and sockets and it certainly won't happen for a long time in the UK or US.
It is possible that an EV could be the best selling car in Israel late next year. That wouldn't happen with plugs and sockets and it certainly won't happen for a long time in the UK or US.
brianoflondon
Member
Also note BP can cope with a number of different batteries in the network. I agree, manufacturers agreeing on a standard would be good but is somewhat unlikely. But again, perhaps they just don't want EVs to succeed. The Nissan/Renault batteries are at least elctrically identical but not in shape.
Or maybe they recognise that they need to differentiate their battery design, shape, and performance, to meet their customers needs... IMO one size does not fit all.
brianoflondon
Member
They'll all end up flat on the floor like Tesla when they start designing proper EVs. We all know that already. It's just length, width and contact shape from here on. Zoe is similar.
It's a hand built sports car and by definition will always cost more than a production car built by a mainstream manufacturer on a line.
IMO that has more to do with politics than battery swap.
If we can muster the political will then plugs and sockets can deliver... the Renault ZOE will be very successful in Europe because of the low up front cost AND 43kW AC 'fast' charging everywhere.
The Leaf, ZOE, and Twizy share the same cells but you couldn't get three more different battery packages... IMO standardised battery packs will never happen.
brianoflondon
Member
They just need to be similar enough and we will find that manufacturers use the same pack across a range for sure. You think the Model X batt is going to different from the Model S? BP can cope with multiple shapes, the only requirement is access from below.
brianoflondon
Member
What I meant is that the Battery Switch Stations BSS are staffed and impossible to block. You wouldn't park across the entrance to a manned car wash! Level 2 charge spot ICING is a huge problem for that reason I don't ever rely on them and leave myself enough range to get to a BSS on the way home if a charge top up is unavailable.
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