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Project Better Place
- Thread starter tonybelding
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- Electric Vehicles
brianoflondon
Member
Actually there is resistance to enforcing this and parking operators can't be forced to reserve a spot for EVs that rarely show up.
rolosrevenge
Dr. EVS
I like the idea of battery swapping but I'm not sure how well it would work as more and more EVs come to market. It is easily conceivable to get 20 or more different size and shapes of batteries across the different car types and manufacturers (compact, economy, midsize, two seater, pickup, full size, performance for each manufacturer potentially with different chemistries) which would require having a huge stock of batteries sitting around. As battery prices decrease and range increases, imagine you can get a car with a 500 mile range for $35,000 how often do you want to drive 7+ hours straight without stopping, then only stop for 10 minutes and pound out another 7? However, it is nice to know there is competition so whatever settles out will be the better of the two solutions.
By the way, battery swapping will be essential in the future EV racing circuits, but the cars will be much more standardized for those.
By the way, battery swapping will be essential in the future EV racing circuits, but the cars will be much more standardized for those.
Well a charge station is not down every two hours for testing either. So I think we are a wash once laws are in place tp prevent ICEing.
Not even sure what you meant by "Are the spots guarded?" I guess you have regional personal or equipment safety/security issues.
And I also did know that the swap stations are manned like a gasoline stations. No EV charge station has that cost of a a paid employee(s) and a building (in the US our stations have a place for the employees to get out of sun and rain and have bathrooms) That has to add to the cost tremendously.
what rubbish... as the number of EV's increase so will the policing of parking spaces... we have seen that at a number of locations here in the UK.
You also ignore the inevitable reduction in Charging Station costs and the impact of large numbers of spaces with charging.
I recently drove as fast as possible for 4 hours in the UK on a mixture of motorways and A roads... in total I traveled 250 miles. If I had a car that would drive that distance and recharge the ~72kWh that I used in 30 minutes then I would be very happy because I would have time for a quick coffee. The reality in the UK is that a 500 mile trip requires a long and tiring day that very few people will undertake on a regular basis.
Given the number of posts we have on this forum about being ICEd, I wouldn't say it's a "non-problem."
Now are there solutions to that problem? Yes. Lets leave that discussion to those threads.
I think it's important to decouple the battery swap concept from Better Place for a moment.
The merrits and demerrits of battery swaps can be considered separate from Better Place. As I understand it, Better Place is really middle man/financing model. I think by definition that adds to the total cost. But perhaps it makes things more affordable for the consumer in the sort term. Kind of like a Solar City for batteries. Better Place still has Level 2 charging, don't they? So it's not like they don't also deal with those issue?
I suppose BP has become synonymous with battery swaps since that's a service they provide that no one else is actively pursuing. But it sounds pretty expensive to build and maintain. The stations are manned by service personnel are tested every couple of hours?
I don't think we'll have (or that we even should have) a standard battery pack format in the near future. And perhaps we never will since the batteries a constantly evolving and the packing should change to optimally use them. (For example, the level of thermal management required.)
Now are there solutions to that problem? Yes. Lets leave that discussion to those threads.
I think it's important to decouple the battery swap concept from Better Place for a moment.
The merrits and demerrits of battery swaps can be considered separate from Better Place. As I understand it, Better Place is really middle man/financing model. I think by definition that adds to the total cost. But perhaps it makes things more affordable for the consumer in the sort term. Kind of like a Solar City for batteries. Better Place still has Level 2 charging, don't they? So it's not like they don't also deal with those issue?
I suppose BP has become synonymous with battery swaps since that's a service they provide that no one else is actively pursuing. But it sounds pretty expensive to build and maintain. The stations are manned by service personnel are tested every couple of hours?
I don't think we'll have (or that we even should have) a standard battery pack format in the near future. And perhaps we never will since the batteries a constantly evolving and the packing should change to optimally use them. (For example, the level of thermal management required.)
Same problem with disabled parking. Here in Ottawa the bylaws require a significant percentage of disabled parking, and it is enforced. Unfortunately 95% of the spots are empty 99% of the time - perhaps 5% of them are used regularly.
Once batteries come down in price and range is over 400 miles (maybe 5 years or so) it would be a hard case to do battery swaps in the US. I think it works well for smaller areas or countries but the number of swap stations that would be needed here and the fact that US makers won't agree on a common battery make this difficult at best. It is a good concept and does have its uses though.
There is always going to be pain for someone in the transitions.
Someday in the rainbow future there will be dozens of EVs fighting for six charge parking places and the very idea of a gasoline car parked there will be ludicrous. It will be shunned and illegal like handicapped parking is now.
Getting to that point will be ugly
Now the ICE drivers complain the plug spots are empty and there is pain for the EV drivers with them ICEing them.
Then when the parking law is passed then the pain will be for the ICE drivers with complaints there are not enough places to park.
Then pain will be the for multipliying EV drivers again as there is not enough places to plug in.
Then as the paking lots swell with charge plug spaces pain again for the ICE drivers who have no place to park.
It's gonna be a bumpy ride folks.
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brianoflondon
Member
I have a piece submitted to Green Car Reports saying how relatively unimportant level 2 public charging is within the BP model. I guess John has been too busy testing the S to edit and put it up 
lucky SOB.
Interesting times ahead.... I hope BP have the cash reserves to pull this off but I honestly don't know. I'm only invested to the tune of $40,000 or so, others have 100s millions riding on it!
lucky SOB. Interesting times ahead.... I hope BP have the cash reserves to pull this off but I honestly don't know. I'm only invested to the tune of $40,000 or so, others have 100s millions riding on it!
sorry but I completely disagree.... it's been easy to get Zero:Net members to prioritise EV parking and I think within a couple of years it will be common place to see EV only parking enforced and then the majority of parking space with low cost charging,... I think your view is distorted by the current US model of a few expensive Charging Stations... imagine low cost Charging Stations everywhere :smile:
Well you are free to disagree, but I think you need to widen your scope a bit and understand not everywhere is like the English countryside, and there is a difference between the present (as in right now, today) and the future.
brianoflondon
Member
Kevin, you are doing a good thing with the charging points for hotels. BP do exactly the same service for profit here and they have had a devil of a time convincing cynical Israeli hoteliers to put in spots. Hopefully now we have rapidly increasing numbers of cars on the road and an advertising campaign the hotels will start asking for charge spots. It's still hard to convince the hotelier it really is something for nothing!
There are also quite a few road side (mostly Arab) restaurants in the north and I'm suggesting that BP go after them next. Those are places we want to spend two hours and are the best for a comfort zone top up.
My take on level 2 within the BP network is published later today on GCR.
I'm planning a late season getaway and I've promised to patronize only a small B&B type place that has a charge spot even if I don't need it, just to make the point.
There are also quite a few road side (mostly Arab) restaurants in the north and I'm suggesting that BP go after them next. Those are places we want to spend two hours and are the best for a comfort zone top up.
My take on level 2 within the BP network is published later today on GCR.
I'm planning a late season getaway and I've promised to patronize only a small B&B type place that has a charge spot even if I don't need it, just to make the point.
We have many different types of location including inner city car parks... my point is that this really is not an issue as we go forward because in the short term EV parking will be policed, and in the longer term each location will have multiple Charging Stations.
I disagree. I often park somewhere for 8-10 hours and I want my EV to be charged and ready when I get back. I do not want to have to go to a swapping station and spend some time there.
brianoflondon
Member
Key word is PUBLIC. I agree, 80% of my driving is covered by my Level 2 charge at home. I don't commute enough to need it at work, but the number one customer model for Better Place is a 140km per day commuter who can have a private charge point at home and office and just shuttle between the two. They install both charge spots.
You should see the car park at their headquarters BTW: EV heaven with almost every spot serviced with a charge station!
I'm referring to public charge points that are subject to the vagaries of prior occupation, ICING and other denial of access problems such that you're not quite sure they'll always be available.
I should claify; I often park at PUBLIC parking spots for 8 hours or more. I'd like those to be L2 charge spots so my Leaf is charged when I get back. I want to get home then, not visit some battery swapping station.
My charge spot at work is also a public lot where everyone can park.
ICEin hasn't been a problem for me, mainly because I usually arrive at around 5AM
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brianoflondon
Member
It's hard to give a snap answer to the question. I've written a full answer at Green Car Reports and would encourage you to read it.
A short answer is there are no other electric cars in Israel but if I was only comparing what I pay in subscription and leasing costs (for the battery, I do own my car just without a battery) against just electricity, then the Better Place service costs 12c per mile over the price of the electricity. I'm happy with that.
The purchase price of my car, home charge spot and 4 years of driving up to 80,000 km is the same as the list price of a Toyota Prius with no fuel. In my head I have 4 years free driving in a car that is much nicer than a Prius. I can switch and charge in public stations as much as I want. I'm covered for breakdown and have a service similar to OnStar covering me too.
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