No I look at it this way. If you need only the 160 battery and you plan on keeping the car until it dies then the 300 mile might be the best idea. After 7 years you would still have a 230 mile car and then you would still have some more years for it to get down to 160 miles (and more to the 112 miles). So you could go MUCH longer without replacing it Right ?!?!?!
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But that's a $20,000 upfront cost for the 300 mile upgrade. I'd rather save that money (and earn interest on it) and upgrade to a larger battery size if I really feel the need 5 - 10 years down the road when I need to replace my original battery pack.
Also, I am surprised that the 300 mile pack is the clear winner in this poll, considering that most people do not drive 160 miles per day. Even if just driven 5 days a week for a 160 mile commute, you're talking about over 40,000 miles a year (and that doesn't even consider weekend driving). Unless you have a commute that is close to 160 miles round trip, it simply does not make any sense to opt for the 300 mile option. Just plug it in overnight. It makes far more sense to rent a car for the few times you'd take a long road-trip. Just think about the kind of nice rental cars $20,000 can buy you over a 7 year period!
It's really a personal preference. You're right that a large majority of driving will fall within that 160 mile range. There are some people that make trips often enough that this wouldn't work though and the convenience of keeping your own car for this trips might be worth the cost of the larger packs.
Also, most people don't keep a car 10 years so by the time the battery is down to 70% after 7 years, many people buying a higher end sedan will look to upgrade anyway. Not everyone but that's something people are probably considering.
kgb
Member
I'm going to start off with, "You're right." I tell everyone that same line when I tell them about the 240 mile range of my Roadster. But, not every decision is made logically. Some people are willing to spend more for "convenience" than others. When you rent a car, you have to call and reserve it, you have to "get a ride" to the rental place, you have to remember to transfer your sunglasses from your car to the rental, etc... That requires mental preparation too - mental effort. So, the more you can use your own car, the more convenient it is.
Assume you can actually drive 300 miles with a 300 mile battery pack (but we know you can probably do a little more). That means to charge at home, you can go 150 miles to your destination and 150 miles back. Certainly that is plenty for commutes and for tooling around town. Many people have nearby towns to which they like to drive for day trips. Of course, if you want to drive your vehicle once you arrive, you can't actually go to a town 150 miles away, you'll have to go to one that is 120 miles away, so you can use 60 miles or so while you are at the destination town. Many people do a 2 hour drive to a "local" destination. The 300 mi pack is perfect for that. Anything longer than that, it is probably easier and cheaper to catch a commuter plane or rent the car. I don't think it is surprising that many people opt for the convenience of the bigger pack.
Correct KGB, convenience is huge. Also, as I mentioned elsewhere, I'd like a buffer. If I forget, don't want to or can't plug in one night, I don't want to be screwed. 300 mile range means I can charge at the beginning of the week, and do my daily commute for pretty much the whole work week before needing to charge.
Maybe I've got the wrong mentality, not having owned a roadster or any other electric car, but HAVING to plugin nightly just feels like a ball and chain.
Maybe I've got the wrong mentality, not having owned a roadster or any other electric car, but HAVING to plugin nightly just feels like a ball and chain.
Yep, wrong mentality. It takes me 10 seconds to plug it in. Big deal. I'd far rather do that in my garage daily than freeze my butt gassing up my car even once! (Picture 5 minutes holding a cold spigot with wind howling around you at -30C).
Personally I wouldn't go for less than the 230 mile pack, because I'm very happy with the Roadster's range. Around town I don't have to worry that local public charging infrastructure is completely nonexistent. It's simply always enough. I'd like the 300 mile simply because it makes road trips easier.
Ok, but what if you forget? Heck, some nights I don't even plug in my cell phone, but it's cool because it's got hefty battery life and I've got a desk charger at the office.
What if I stay at a friends house? What if I lose power? A lot of what ifs true, but I'm huge on being independent (funny for a guy that's married), and get really uneasy if I feel as if I'm on a short leash.
In any case, it'll vary for everyone, but suffice to say if the 160 pack were the only option, I might not even be considering an s.
What if I stay at a friends house? What if I lose power? A lot of what ifs true, but I'm huge on being independent (funny for a guy that's married), and get really uneasy if I feel as if I'm on a short leash.
In any case, it'll vary for everyone, but suffice to say if the 160 pack were the only option, I might not even be considering an s.
kgb
Member
AnOutsider said:
AnOutsider, you have the "wrong mentality." Assuming you don't set up your charger in some remote location and you set it up near your parking space (like most everyone does), the added moment of plugging in the car is nothing. In stead of being a ball and chain, it feels a bit more like tucking your kids in bed at night. It's actually a pleasant experience. The bonus is when you get to think of all the time you save NOT fueling up on gas. Not sweating out in the heat, freezing in the cold, getting wet in the rain. Assuming that I spent about 10 minutes fueling up on average, and I gassed up about 5 to 6 times per month (before my Roadster), I've saved 11 hours of my time this past year!!!!!! (I just did the calculation)
I entirely agree with you. There will always be those willing to spend more for the added convenience, even if it's borderline irrational. But I figured that would account for a fair amount of people leaning towards the 300 mile battery option, not a majority. That's what I find surprising.
But hey, when I first looked at the battery pack options, I too convinced myself that 160 miles was not enough. But once I realized it was a $20,000 difference (a 40% premium on the total value of the base model) I started to think it through.
I also have to imagine that most people who have the money to even consider the 300 mile option likely have 1 or 2 other cars that are better suited for longer trips anyways.
That'd be like forgetting to stop and get gas today. Or forgetting to set the emergency brake. Or forgetting to lock the car when you get to work.
If you find yourself constantly forgetting these sorts of small automotive related tasks, then I can see your point, though you might also look at getting tested for Alzheimer's
.
It all depends on which batteries go into the 160 pack also. If tesla uses the same batteries accross the board, the 160 pack might be a decent pack(value for the money). The biggest unknown is the performance of the 160 pack. Since Tesla's plan is to sell the 300 mile pack first, I really doubt that anyone has a chance to drive the 160 mile car to compare before comitting to buy.
shark2k
Member
That'd be like forgetting to stop and get gas today. Or forgetting to set the emergency brake. Or forgetting to lock the car when you get to work.
If you find yourself constantly forgetting these sorts of small automotive related tasks, then I can see your point, though you might also look at getting tested for Alzheimer's
In fairness to the bold part, a lot of people do not bother using the e-brake because they feel just putting the car in park is good enough, so I don't think that is the best example
. Though your first one is valid because enough people do actually run out of gas ironicly enough. And the last one, well people are stupid and do leave their cars unlocked on purpose .Though AnOutsider bringing this up I did have a question. How many of you have your chargers in a EVSE (correct acronym, right?) in a garage vs. outside? I ask because at my parents house, if I were to get an EV, I wouldn't be able to put the EVSE inside the garage (we don't use it for cars, like most people in my neighborhood). I would have to put the EVSE outside, so I'm wondering how that would chance the "convenience" factor of it? For instance (I'm in Northern NJ so it does get cold, though admittedly not as bad as Canada or other places more north). I'm also wondering about charging when it's raining or snowing. That could make it nicer to have the larger battery so that if you need to wait out the weather a few days to charge, you have enough range.
-Shark2k
P.S. AnOutsider, I like your new avatar.
That'd be like forgetting to stop and get gas today. Or forgetting to set the emergency brake. Or forgetting to lock the car when you get to work.
If you find yourself constantly forgetting these sorts of small automotive related tasks, then I can see your point, though you might also look at getting tested for Alzheimer's
I'm not dissuaded lol. I honestly can't see myself whipping out the Cale and plugging in every night. Heck when I get home I hate running back out to get the mail or unloading bags. In any case, I still think my choice works best for me.
Thanks shark, I used it on fb and everyone was confused... Thought it was a new mouse from Logitech or something
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I'd be tempted to go with the 160 mile pack for the reasons Onlinespending mentioned, of course I drive an EV with 50 miles max range, so that would be a huge upgrade for me. You're basically taking a gamble either way, will the smaller pack last long enough and will prices of new batteries drop enough in the future, or will the extra mileage and shallower cycling of the larger pack make it last substantially longer and pay off in the long run? If you think you'll actually use a good portion of the larger pack often enough then there is no question.
It's really not an issue for me at least. I've forgotten maybe twice to plug in since December when I got my car. The 245 mile Roadster pack is more than enough for me the next day anyway. I'm the kind of person who charges my mobile phone each night though. It's really just a new fact of modern life. You charge your cell phone, you remember to turn your TV off before you go to bed....you plug your car in when you get home for the night. With the mobile app, maybe then can make an alert that if you don't plug your car in by 10PM, it sends you a text message or e-mail.
Not mentioned is the DC fast charging network. Until this network is up and running with locations every 25 to 50 miles along every major highway in the US, the extended range is NECESSARY to make normal travel possible. Once the network is deployed then smaller batteries are an option, at least for my driving.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I think he, (and certainly I), was thinking more along the lines of keeping the battery until it wears out enough that it no longer provided enough range, and then getting a new pack, which would take much longer than the 3 years you used in your calculations.
kgb
Member
kgb said:
Did you not see what I wrote before? It would be like forgetting to put the kids to bed!
I think your cost estimates are off. Telsa uses a 300Wh/mile consumption average for their calculations. This means the 160 mile pack has a roughly 48 kWh capacity. The 230 mile pack would have a 69 kWh capacity. And the 300 mile pack would have a 90 kWh capacity.
Lets suppose we use a cost of $400 per kWh for the Li-ion batteries. Tesla is likely paying sub $400 per kWh given the bulk pricing discounts they can get, but this is a conservative estimate.
That would mean the difference in cost of the 230 mile pack over the 160 pack is roughly $8,400. And $16,800 for the 300 mile pack over the 160 mile pack. The cost of the battery pack structure and cooling mechanism are a common cost to all capacities. The Li-ion cell costs to Telsa are likely considerably less, so make no mistake about it, they are making fairly good margins on selling the larger capacity packs. These margins on the batteries themselves are arguably more on a first generation model given that they are a young company with a desperate need for cash, and are taking advantage of early adopter psychology.
I also have to imagine that if you were to upgrade to a larger capacity pack, you wouldn't necessarily be paying for the entire pack structure, but it'd be more for the Li-ion cells themselves. The Tesla dealership could likely swap them out, or within a few years there may even be non-OEM solutions for the cells. So you're argument that 300 mile upgrade price 3 years from now would be more than it is now for the cells is likely off. I could easily see the 300 mile pack being a $10k upgrade (or less) 4 years after initial production. As more and more automakers manufacture EVs, the price of Li-ion cells will drop significantly.
And technology will only improve also. I imagine one day not far from now there will only be a single battery capacity offered, as costs drop and energy densities increase. It simply won't be cost effective to offer the different options, especially when the prices of these cells drop tremendously and become a lower percentage of the overall cost of the vehicle.
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